Beer sensory is a fancy way of saying "tasting beer." It's also a fancy way of tasting beer, because it aims to break down why beer tastes the way it does, and how we can go about making beer taste consistently delicious, every single brew. If that sounds interesting, it's because it is! And, in this episode, we dive deep into our sensory program with Karl, our beer-tasting guru here at Allagash.
Beer sensory is a fancy way of saying "tasting beer." It's also a fancy way of tasting beer, because it aims to break down why beer tastes the way it does, and how we can go about making beer taste consistently delicious, every single brew. If that sounds interesting, it's because it is! And, in this episode, we dive deep into our sensory program with Karl, our beer-tasting guru here at Allagash.
This is From Maine, With Love an Allagash podcast, where we talk about beer, our community here in Maine and things that generally make us happy. Uh, I'm Brett Willis, uh, on the marketing team here at Allagash with Liz Wilson, from the marketing team.
Liz Wilson:Hello.
Brett Willis:Hi Liz. And we have as our special guest today, Karl Arnberg our sensory program manager. It's all about tasting beer, but in a very scientific way. Um, and you'll learn quite a bit about that, um, in this episode, but there's so much to tasting beer.
Liz Wilson:A lot of things go into making sure the beer tastes, you know, up to our freshness and quality standards when it, when it heads out the door from the brewery. And I think Karl has put a program in place that that helps to keep that going here at Allagash
Brett Willis:Absolutely robust<laugh>. Um, so if you wanna learn about tasting beer, uh, and how we do it here at Allagash listen to this podcast. Hello, Karl.
Karl Arnberg:Hi, everybody
Brett Willis:So much for coming on the show, because today we're gonna talk about taste and beer and you are going to be absolutely astounded at how in depth we can get into tasting beer and the taste of beer. Uh, I I've legit. So since we, since we started this podcast, this has been one that I've been ex really excited to, to do so thank you, Karl, for joining and, uh, making my podcast dreams come true. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um,<laugh>
Karl Arnberg:Good. Glad.
Brett Willis:Uh, but before we get to beer, I have a question for you, Karl. And the question is what is the one? It doesn't have to be the one thing. What is a thing, an important thing that you'd tell someone if they said I want to start a sheep farm.
Karl Arnberg:Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you're, you're referring to my wife and I have a, a small sheep farm. We used to have up to 40 or so sheep back when we were young and, um, we had a couple kids and the older the kids got the less sheep we ended up out. So we still have six sheep. Now that kind of do the, the grass cutting on our farm.
Brett Willis:That's great. Do they still, um,
Karl Arnberg:And they, they are, they are wonderful. They're wonder they're
Brett Willis:I was gonna say, do they still eat Christmas trees? Is that, do they still like that?
Karl Arnberg:They love Christmas trees. That's good. Yeah. When we have a lot more, I would put an open request out to everybody at Allagash to bring in their, their Christmas trees that we could feed out to the sheep throughout the winter. It
Liz Wilson:Always,
Karl Arnberg:And I still collect some, it
Liz Wilson:Always made me feel better about yeah. Where my Christmas tree was grow going. Um, and I feel like the last couple of years I've been like, what do I do with you Christmas tree<laugh> out there looking for sheep defeated to
Brett Willis:Where does Karl live? Yeah. She's just gonna go throw it in his yard.<laugh> hope for the best.
Karl Arnberg:Yeah. Sheep and goats, both both of, of Christmas trees and, and pumpkins. So old Jack o' lanterns
Brett Willis:Every seasonal item that just gets thrown out tree<laugh> they just love it.<laugh>
Liz Wilson:It's another extension of the sustainability practices here at Allagash for real. I do. Cause I feel like Karl, what you do, it's, you know, it's such a critical part of, you know, our operation here at Allagash, but it's not to me, like the most easily explained or as someone as a casual beer drinker really would think too much about, you know, they're enjoying the beer, they're ha it's tasting delicious and fresh, all the things that we strive for. So could you give a little bit of a primer on what you do here at Allagash just in the broad sense?
Karl Arnberg:Yeah. Um, so let's see in the broad sense, um, we are tasting tasting beer as it goes through the process of making it to evaluate the quality and consistency of what we're making. Um, so we can use, um, we can use visual indicators, aroma and flavor, taste, and mouth feel to look at, um, what kind of control we have in our process to make better beer, to make consistent and to make improvements over time. Um, we, um, I'm largely focus on the very end of the process. So looking at beer just before it's going to market or looking at finished beer, um, to make, to, to make some informed decisions about processes earlier on in the, in the beer making process. Um, but we have a culture of, of sensory here at the brewery. So brewers are tasting ingredients and smelling them. They're tasting water seller and the sellers they're tasting samples out of fermentors. And as they're being processed and going to packaging, they're being taste, tasted all through that process as well. So, um, while we have kind of a formal sensory program, there's lots of tasting and little, little bits of information that are being produced throughout the, the whole system.
Liz Wilson:Yeah. That's great. That's awesome. I think that's super helpful.
Brett Willis:Yeah. The, uh, so like, I guess my, my question, my next one kind of comes steps, steps back a teeny bit from that. Uh, but it's one that I think underpins so much of the way that you do things. And it's just that, I don't even know if this is the correct way to ask this, but does everyone taste things the same way? Like do things taste the same to every person?
Karl Arnberg:<laugh>
Brett Willis:No, of course, of course. Spoiler alert, um, spoiler, they do not.<laugh> that's crazy anyway.
Karl Arnberg:Um, no, no, of course not. Um, you know, we, as people we're, um, we have really honed, uh, senses for specific things, but we're also pretty sloppy, um, uh, into, in taking in information as well. Um, where our mood, our environment, our surroundings, the company we're in all can change how you are, um, sensing your, your surroundings or in, in our case, a sample of beer. Um, that being said, all of those kind of controllable factors aside, every person has abilities that they're stronger at or weaker at, or can't even do it all. Uh, colorblindness is a really good example of that, um, where we think we're all looking at the same colors throughout the day, but, um, obviously there are people that can't see certain colors, um, or see, see them in a different way, more vibrantly, uh, or dollar. So same thing is true for your sense of smell and your sense of taste. Um, and getting to know yourself as a, as a taster, um, where we, we run through we've run panelists or the tasters on our, our taste panel through a lot of education to taste for and recognize the, the things we're, we're trying to pinpoint or look at specifically in beer, I'm also taking in a lot of information about what are you good at? What are, what aren't you so good at? And is it something that can be practiced and worked on? Or is it something we should just accept as part of your part of you and, and, uh, kind of move on to other things?
Brett Willis:Yeah, it's interesting too, because I think like with that, there are, we'll get into it, but, you know, there are specific flavors that we're looking for in certain beers and like that is kind of like that color blindness that, that, uh, uh, Karl's talking about. It's like, there are some people who totally taste this one or taste and smell and experience this one aroma where other people can't get it at all. And it's just, it's so interesting to kind of find that in the classes. Sorry, Liz go ahead.
Liz Wilson:No, and it's, I, I feel like so much of your senses are tied to memories too, which is fascinating in addition to your surroundings in that moment, but the things that I've, you know, and we can get into this in a little bit, but I feel like that is, uh, just a, just a fascinating way that our brain interprets things and makes associations with taste and memory.
Brett Willis:Yeah. And as an aside too, uh, we have a, a beer coming up that normally we taste it just in a sensory sort of way in the sensory booths, which we'll talk about and just kind of like in a more, uh, controlled environment, I guess. And actually we had a request of take this beer home, drink it like you would at, in a normal, you know, drink it on the couch, drink it with a friend or whatever. And like, it was pretty surprising to me how much that changed the experience of the beer. It was really cool where I like found myself not nitpicking as much into the small details and more just being like, oh yeah, yeah, I drink that. Like,<laugh>, you know, it's just nice.<laugh> uh, so thank you, Karl, for, uh, making it science, sciencey to go drink beer at home. Um, do you want the next one, Liz?
Liz Wilson:Yeah, sure. Um, and I think sort of just building off of that, you know, if, if people sort of taste and smell things differently, then how do we have a common way for us to talk about, you know, our beer, um, knowing that people have very different, um, taste experiences.
Karl Arnberg:Yeah. That's, that's one of the hardest things to, to get into when tasting, or when looking, giving people something to taste or experience and asking for feedback, you have to find a common language to be able to talk about. Um, I've used the analogy that we have. We have lots of common descriptors for shades of color, right? We have kind of the root names for blue and red and yellow, but then you can get into the, the more finicky or the, the, the hot, the more specific names for colors. Like if you said coral, you're probably gonna have a, a good guess as to what shade of, uh, or salmon, right? What shade of pink is that to compared to many other others in the spectrum? Um, so with aromas and flavors, we have a, a wide range of descriptors and experiences that feed into how we, what words we use to describe what we're smelling and tasting. Um, and not even to mention that we have tasters here that grew up in different countries. Um, so their experiences are gonna be wildly different than the experiences, um, from somebody who's grown up in Maine or, um, you know, from across the country. So one of the first things we do is we, we kind of break down a beer into its components and start isolating specific flavors, specific aromas, to be able to present it to you and say, this is, this is what we call this flavor attribute, right? Here's the flavor, here's the aroma, we call this what, you know, whatever here's its name. And, um, that way as you are smelling or tasting it in the, in the beer, along with all of the other flavors, if you do smell and taste it, you have a way to communicate that, um, that stimuli,
Liz Wilson:I don't know if we wanna get into Allagash white, you sort of, you know, it might be nice to sort of talk about some of those since it's such a oh, widely known, um, beer, but I don't know, Brett, what do you think?
Brett Willis:Yeah. Yeah. I think a segue into that being like, I just am trying to, I'm trying to remember. I haven't been in the sensory classroom for like so long, so I'm trying to remember a specific, like Isoamyl acetate, or like what would be a spec, because I, I think Karl, the thing I'm thinking of is like, we have a name for something and everyone knows what that smells or taste like to them, but the broad the range that that smell can contain is a really kind of cool, uh, range. So like thinking of like a prominent, like, uh, is it 4-vinyl guacaol, what's the one that's that's kind of like vanilla or cloves, I'm just gonna make my sound. So I'm just spouting out words here. What am I doing? Save me, Karl!
Karl Arnberg:<laugh>.
Brett Willis:So I guess before we get into specific flavors, you know, thinking of how we kind of talk about them mutually, like Karl, can you tell how, or can you talk a little bit about how training factors into getting people up to speed and getting everyone talking the same language?
Karl Arnberg:<affirmative> all right. So, um, so training training for specific flavors or, um, the training that we put panelists through, um, we start with volunteers that are here at the brewery. Um, unfortunately only<laugh> employees. Yeah. As of the moment. Um, yeah, and we, uh, we first start by just tasting beer, just tasting a, a bunch of varieties of brands or, or styles of beer, and that really point to specific elements of beer sensory, or what you would expect from, from any beer. So we'll look at what yeast character does what's, uh, hop aroma and flavor and taste will do, uh, you know, malts, um, ranging from pale to, to the darkest of roasts and spices and kind of looking at each of those and how they can change a beer, how they can dominate a beer or how they can all mix together to make a, a balanced, um, array of them. So after we've gone through that, we'll start breaking down and teaching those, those flavor attributes where, um, we can point to, we can even just, I, I use the word spike to mean adding some of that chemical directly into a sample so that it enhances that particular smell or taste in that, in that beer. So I can spike water with, uh, a flavor attribute. So all you have is that direct smell for you to think about, to recognize, to relate, to, uh, to think about memories that are out are elicited by this smell or taste. Uh, and then we'll put it in beer and we'll, we'll look at it in a number of different contexts, like different strengths of the flavor attribute. Uh, when it's, especially at the beginning, we'll put it into, um, kind of a more balanced or light beer, like Allagash white, where that flavor attribute is allowed to really come forward and dominate it. And then I'll start, um, bringing back that concentration so that it becomes more integral into the overall flavor smell of that, of that here. And, uh, so long as of a panelist that's training can still pick it out, still able the finds that specific flavor attribute in that lighter concentration. I can start putting it into more intense beers, um, you know, hoppier beers, maltier beers, stronger, uh, more alcohol, um, things that put that flavor into different contexts because it can, those flavors are they're, they're not only standalone aromas and tastes, but they're becoming part of the, the profile of that sample. So they interact with the other smells and tastes to possibly morph into different smells, or they may come off differently depending on what the rest of the beer is around it. So, um, for example, there's a, a flavor attribute we look for pretty regularly called acetaldehyde which has this kind of green appley smell to it. Um, maybe kind of like grass clippings, um, or some people say the inside of a, a pumpkin or squash and some concentrations it's very solvent. Um, so it can smell like emulsion paint and has a very chemically like taste and lighter concentrations that you might get kind of a pair like smell. Um, yeah. So you can see, we have to kind of relate all of those different, um, contexts to be able to find that one flavor in any beer at any concentration and know what to look for and then be able to relate it back to what that, what the name is for that flavor attribute
Liz Wilson:Super tasters, super tasers.
Brett Willis:Uh, I guess my, my next question for that is like, so why do we care if we see acetaldehyde like, what does that tell us? You know, like for that particular one, I feel like it's just, this is a good little microcosm of like, why we look for specific flavors in specific beers.
Karl Arnberg:Yeah, sure. acetaldehyde specifically for us is a chemical that shows up as yeast is turning sugar into CO2 and alcohol. And if you smell any beer as, um, in the middle of that process, right? So the yeast hasn't converted everything to CO2 mm-hmm<affirmative> or alcohol it's just somewhere in, in the middle of it. Um, you have this acetaldehyde smell and taste in, um, what it means is that things isn't done, it's not done maturing that beer. Why it's important to us is because, um, we condition a lot of our packaged beer. So, um, we add yeast and sugar into a finished beer and then put it in a bottle, a keg or a can, and wait for the yeast to turn all of that sugar into the CO2 that carbonates your, your beer. If we try and sell it or ship that beer, or even just chill it down in the refrigerator before that process is finished, you can end up with, uh, a beer that's not carbonated all the way, but you kind of track that flavor into, into that beer. So it, um, it means that it's not done. We just need to give it more time. It'll eventually go away. If you give, uh, if you give it a few more days or however long it takes for, for that process to finish, but it's a really good check for us, and it really doesn't cost anything to know that that process is finished, um, just by tasting it and be being able to say, it's good to go or give it a couple days before we ship it. That's
Liz Wilson:Great. So, Karl, I guess, with all of that, um, in mind, you know, you sort of talk about off flavors and how could you talk a little bit about what some more common off flavors are? Cause I think it can sound a little bit, you know, uh, you know, some of these chemicals have big names that I certainly have a hard time pronouncing, but some things as, you know,<laugh>, it, something as simple as being exposed to light, um, you know, might be a really common one that people could even may have noticed and not really known what the heck happened to their beer, because from my understanding, it doesn't take that much time to actually change the beer if it's exposed to light.
Karl Arnberg:Sure. Off flavors are really any flavor attribute that doesn't belong in, uh, a beer. And that can be rule that can be judged by style of beer that can be judged by the age of the beer or how it's packaged or stored. Hmm. So let me give you a couple of examples. Um, uh, well let me, uh, let me start with lightstruck that you brought up. Lightstruck is a chemical that's produced when, uh, rays of light, uh, break apart the chemical that causes bitterness from, uh, that's that's been introduced from hops, right? So the, the bitter taste that we get from hops as a spice, uh, is a chemical called iso-alpha acid. When that sees a specific wavelength of light in the presence of other sulfur containing chemicals around it, it will sheer off a little tiny part and combined with sulfur. And that smell has a very skunky smell much a lot, because it's a very similar chemical to what you get out of skunks at a skunk spray. So if you leave a, a beer and a glass, um, a clear glass, or even, uh, green or brown bottles, anything out in direct sunlight, it will develop over time. This lightstruck this, this skunky smell, uh, especially in the summer. Yeah. If you're out on the porch with a, a clear glass or even a plastic glass, by the end of the, of the, the, of your, of your glass, that beer's gonna probably start smelling like that, that skunky, that skunky smell.
Liz Wilson:It's amazing to me how quickly that can happen, cuz even just, you know, a hot summer day by the, from the time you start drinking the beer to the time you finish drinking the beer, um, it can change.
Brett Willis:Yeah. And I feel like that also just shows how delicate a substance beer is. Like, you know, there is so much going on behind the scenes to make sure that it tastes exactly like we want it to taste where like, you know, even a little bit of sunlight on the shelf for a little too long, boom, you got a different flavor.
Karl Arnberg:Yeah. And liker is not something we want in our beer. Our, we, we don't, that's the flavor that we've recognized. We just don't want our customers to, to drink. And so, um, we put, we package our beer into brown bottles that brown color on the, in the glass, it doesn't entirely prevent, but it does some shielding to keep that lightstruck flavor from developing. Now there are some beers on the market that do want some of that lightstruck flavor, um, just because of the consistency of that brand in the market to having that light struck flavor. So that is an off flavor for us, but very much an on flavor for somebody else. And so every time, like when we talk about off flavors, it's has to come with a conversation about context because what flavors you may want in some beers you may not want in others.
Liz Wilson:Yeah. And yeah, I think that's really important to sort of reiterate because it's not a universal off flavor. It is an off flavor for the beer that you are speaking specifically about.
Karl Arnberg:Right, right. Um, another good example is a, a flavor called diacetyl.
Brett Willis:Ah, I was gonna, you read my mind!
Karl Arnberg:It has a very buttery, uh, butter popcorn, like smell. Yeah. Um, it's um, you find it in yogurt, you find it in butter and, um, you know, it's used as a butter or has been used as a butter aroma flavoring for, for a long time, but it is considered an off flavor by many breweries that don't want that buttery, yogurty, dairy, like smell and taste in their beer. But it's really good in, in some beers. Um, right. Like check pilsners with a little bit of diastal just gives you some, some nice complexity. Um, diacetyl is also a naturally occurring chemical in, uh, coffee. So really it goes well with roasted roasted malt. So it's really nice in a stout. It's really nice in other dark beers, cuz it, it kind of rounds out the complexity of that rustiness in that beer.
Liz Wilson:You learn something new every day.
Brett Willis:I thought I knew the answer to that when Karl used stuff like six things I'd never heard<laugh> oh man, I thought you were gonna be talking about ESBs and stuff. And it was like, so extra special bitters do those, those have a little bit of a diacetyl in them, right? Like that style of beer.
Karl Arnberg:Yeah. A lot of English, a lot of English style beers can, can have a little bit of diacetyl.
Brett Willis:I knew one thing I got the one, uh, so actually real quick though, Karl, what causes diacetyl yeah.
Karl Arnberg:Uh, it can come from a couple of things. Um, oh, okay. Yeast, ye produce, uh, the chemical that turns into diacetyl during fermentation, um, when you're maturing that a beer or, and, or wine for, or whatever you're fermenting yeast end up kind of re metabolizing that precursor chemical. So kind of like that acetaldehyde if you stop that process before it's done, you'll get left with that chemical, uh, left over. Um, it also is produced by bacteria, beer, spoiling bacteria. Mm. Uh, bacteria that are infected in draft lines. Yeah. Or if the beer going into a package is infected will produce that diacetyl flavor over time.
Brett Willis:All right. I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take the next one because it kind of, it goes, uh, from here. And I don't know if this is something that we should have touched earlier or if we should touch it later, but I like to just touch on it right now. That is let's talk about how, what is the right way to taste a beer
Karl Arnberg:The right way. Yes. Um, alright. So the right way for panelists or the right way for anybody TAing. I,
Brett Willis:I say, I say right. And quote, I meant, I meant to do air quotes in my voice, but yes, I know, you know, there's probably not one correct way. I don't want to feel snobby, but at the same time, like, you know, how do we, what is your kind of right way that we taste a beer?
Karl Arnberg:Sure. So, um, so first of all, environment is everything. Um, Hmm. And the more you can control your environment and your outlook on what's going on, uh, in that tasting the better. So the first thing is like, find a place that's quiet. That's mostly, uh, free of aromas, um, and sound, um, and not as not a place that's not distracting.
Brett Willis:Mm-hmm<affirmative>
Karl Arnberg:Next. Um, you wanna be in the right state of mind, right? You, you want to be in a place where you're expecting to taste something that you're not being rushed. You're not distracted, but you have the ability to be mindful of what you're doing. Uh, you put some beer, usually three or four ounces in a glass. Um, we use brandy snifters, but chaises will work even Tumblr's are, you know, whatever you have, you can, you can make any glass work. Hm. And you, you leave, you know, three or four ounces in a glass that's at least twice as much of that volume. Mm-hmm<affirmative> because you want to give yourself room to be able to swirl that beer in the glass. Now aroma comes out of beer or any liquid by the chemicals you're smelling, going from the liquid state, into the gaseous state. And, uh, because you're typically tasting beer a little bit colder because of the CO2, those, those aromas don't like to come out of solution mm-hmm<affirmative> so you have to entice them out and you can do that a couple ways by swirling, uh, beer and a glass, you coat the inside with more beer, right? So you increase the surface area where those aromas leave liquid and go into the, the gaseous phase. Um, also your browsing CO2 and those bubbles as they're bubbling out, will dissolve and carry with them. A lot of the aromas that you're smelling by browsing that up, you kind of make a vapor of those smells that you're looking for in your glass. And, um, when you bring it to your nose to smell, it has hopefully given you a little bit more of the, of the character to smell and, and pick through, um, as you're, as you're tasting. Um, so one thing that we're, I'm usually pretty adamant about tasters doing is being mindful about when they're bringing the glass to their nose, um, you know, keeping it, it arms length. So that, that smell isn't, they're not, they're not unintentionally smelling that sample of beer and becoming saturated with it before they are mindful to what they're smelling. So you kind of, you kind of intentionally bring it to your nose when you're ready to smell, smell it. And then follow that up with a sip, uh, to coat the inside of your mouth. Think about the, the mouth feel and the, the taste, um, should probably point out spitting or swallowing are both acceptable methods of mm-hmm<affirmative> tasting beer. Sure. Uh, it's kind of whatever you're most familiar and comfortable with. And, um, after you've, after you've swallowed or, or spit, you breathe out through your nose just to kind of deliver some more of that Roma to your nasal cavity through, um, a process called retronasal olfaction. So that is the, that is the method by which we form the concept of flavor taking aromas that are in kind of in our mouth, in our throat and combining it with the tastes that we're picking up on our tongue. And that will give you a by kind of breathing slowly out through your nose. You kind of, you, you deliver those aromas a little bit more efficiently, um, to hopefully make a little bit more flavor to pick up on. Yeah. So the overall process kind of goes like, keep your glass at arms length, look at the beer. Right. Look at the color and the foam, the clarity, the lacing on the, in outside of the glass mm-hmm<affirmative> or the, excuse me, on the inside of the glass, uh, gently swirl the beer to coat the inside of your glass, bring it to your nose for a sniff, follow it by a sip, and then gently breathe out through your nose after you swallow
Brett Willis:Easy as that,<laugh> just as easy. Next time. Next time I drink water. Yeah. I'll drink it correctly.
Karl Arnberg:We, we, uh, you know, I probably say that method to every panelist, every time they come in for a training yeah. With the goal that they don't think about it, that they just do it right. That they develop a muscle memory to do that process. So they can be more mindful of what they're seeing and smelling and tasting. So I really, I give people high fives in the break room when I see that doing it with coffee or doing it with orange juice.<laugh> so like it works, right?
Brett Willis:Yeah. It's tasting consistently.
Liz Wilson:That's good. How many, how many people at Allagash are currently are on our sensory panel? Do we know?
Karl Arnberg:That's a great question. It's I think right around 50.
Liz Wilson:Yeah.
Brett Willis:Hmm. How many actually, how many months of training does it take to get on the panel generally?
Karl Arnberg:Um, that, that can kind of depend on if there are holidays or<laugh> what production schedule looks like. Yeah. Um, I would say maybe four to six months of training to kind of catch up with the level that we're using at the, the actual tasting panel.
Brett Willis:That's cool.
Karl Arnberg:Um, that, that being said, training never stops. Yeah. Right. If you're tasting on the panel, we're gonna keep you training in some capacity, because tasting is a, is a skill. We teach you how to read music and, and, and the techniques of playing an instrument, but you have to practice to keep the skill going. And, um, so you have to keep tasting, you have to keep practicing that skill in order to, to keep it up.
Brett Willis:That's a great way to put it. So Karl, just to step back at teensy bit, so you talked about panelists, uh, that's kind of our internal term for people who are tasting beer. People who've been fully trained who are able to kind of taste that beer. And so can you kind of just like, give a really brief overview of like, how many, you know, how many panels do we have? What sort like what, you know, I don't know what beers are we tasting, like, I guess just a kind of high level, uh, on how that works.
Karl Arnberg:Oh gosh, sure. So our, the big, the major panel that we run every day, Monday through Thursday is, um, what we call here, a treated type or a treated target test. And this is evaluating a sample of beer to kind of the expectations for the brand of that beer. Um, each panelist will get a description of what that beer is supposed to look like and smell like and taste like mm-hmm<affirmative> and they evaluate the sample in front of them against what those expectations are. So that's when you would look for, um, aromas that should be there. Right. Mm-hmm<affirmative> so the, the smells you would typically think about with say an Allagash White, right. And also try and pick out if there are any flavors that shouldn't be there present in that, in that sample. Um, we use the data from all of the panelists that taste that to evaluate if that particular batch has meets the expectations for that brand. And if it is, um, acceptable to, to ship and start selling that beer. That's, that's awesome that, yeah, that tasting, that tasting panel is usually the last step before we release beer to market. Um, so it's really the last, the last check that we do is just to make sure that it tastes like we want it to before we saw it.
Liz Wilson:Yeah. I know when we started canning Allagash White, which was not that long ago, it 2018. Yeah. Um, yeah. Be making sure there was no, I believe statistically significant difference between tasting alga white in a bottle and tasting Allagash White in a can and making sure that we had all of that dialed in before releasing a new package. So
Karl Arnberg:That's right. That's right. And we, we used a test called, um, a difference test to be able to tell us that, um, difference tests do exactly what it sounds like. It tells you if there's a difference between two samples among all of the panelists that you have tasting it. Hmm. So the process we used was called a Tetrad a Tetrad test has four samples of beer. Two of them are out of a bottle. Two of them are out of a can, and then you mix'em all up and put them in front of a taster and a person tasting would taste all four and try and pair them up, pair up the two from the bottle. And the two from the can. There's a, roughly one third chance that, or there's about R roughly one third, you'll get just by chance alone. Mm. Right. You can just mark whatever you want. And one of the three times you're gonna get it. Correct. Mm-hmm<affirmative> so you have to, we have to look for how many people are tasting it. And then what, what's a significant number above that who can correctly identify that pairing. Uh, and it turns out that we did not find a significant difference between the bottle and the can there weren't enough people who were able to pick out those beers right. Next to each other. Yeah. As being different.
Brett Willis:Yeah. And something, something that this hints at Karl that I don't know, if anyone listening, who has not met you before would know about you, but you are the like, trickster of all tricksters, who I've ever met in my life. And it's like, you'd never expect it. But then you throw out these tests that are like, so this is what you're talking about when you're talking about people training. Like, because Karl is here to be the, the, the riddle master and throw in things that we were like, you, you make me go insane in the booth because I'm like, I'm sitting there and I'm like, this is Curieux, but is it triple? Like, or is it Curieux? But it has diacetyl. Like, there's you just make people second guess because it's, which is really fun. Like, you know, the, so, um, I can, you can, you can explain this better, but like, as an example, you know, there will be something where you, you come up to these beers and you get four different samples of like Allagash white and two of'em tastes the same. And one of'em tastes two something different and be that's because Karl has intentionally spiked the beer with one of these off flavors that we don't want in the beer as a test to see how many people pick it up. And so oftentimes people will pick that up. Then, then we'll see how many people correctly, both picked up that there was an off flavor in that beer and also knew exactly which off flavor it was. So there are all these sorts of things there, but like, then they're just like random tests where you sometimes you'll have like, Allagash White and you'll put like blue moon in there. And we'll just be like, what, what, what? That's not often, but I don't know. It's, it's just gotta keep the toes, keep'em on toes. I love the trickiness.
Karl Arnberg:That's right. I don't want people to be complacent right. Or to fall into a routine that they think they know what I'm doing. Right. Right. As soon as you get comfortable with assuming, you know, what is in front of you, I'm not doing my job. Right. I need to keep you on your toes. I need you to pick out and be surprised by things. Yeah. Because when, when, and if we ever do have a problem in the beer, that's coming through the brewery, it's gonna be a surprise. Right. We're not going to expect it. So I need to constantly give people surprises so that it's not unusual. Right. Yeah. So that, it's, it, it's not an unusual thing to, to experience.
Brett Willis:Are you on like a trickster forum?<laugh> you're like on a trickster forum. So are you looking up new tricks?
Liz Wilson:There's a subreddit for that.
Brett Willis:With your trickster b uddies.< laugh>
Karl Arnberg:Uh, I, uh, I know, you know, I'll, I'll often like I'll put together maybe a spike, right? So, so on just to go back quickly on that, true to type or true, to true, to target test. Um, and in addition to samples of beer that is waiting to be released, I'll put next to it, samples of beer that are just extra beers or beers I've gotten from the store that I've put those spikes into. And those are the controls of the whole experiment. Right. I need to know that the panel of people who I have tasting are samples when they're tasting this spiked beer can correctly identify it and can, can tell me that it shouldn't be that way. So, so long as the panel is able to, or recognize and flag that simple, that is kind of a vote of confidence that all of the other samples, the unknown samples, the, the beers we need to release are also undergoing the same amount of, of analytical evaluation. So when I'm putting together what classes, you know, what classes of beer that I have that need to go in front of people, I often think about, I look at the list of beers and then think about why did I choose that, right? Why did I choose that spike? Am I falling? Am I falling into a pattern of making the same choices over and over again? Sure. And usually that's not true<laugh> but occasionally I'll be like, I did that exactly. One week ago. I need to do something completely different.
Brett Willis:Yeah.
Karl Arnberg:So then you just have to think about what's the most, the least expected thing to happen right now. And then put that in front of, put that in front of Brett to try and try and pick it up.
Brett Willis:<laugh> uh, that's good. Uh, another little detail, uh, in the sensory booth is like, there's a little piece of paper that tells you what you tasted after the fact. And so, because other people are going into the sensory thing, as you're coming out, you like, can't show your emotion when you realize how wrong you were.<laugh>, you know, like you, like, see, you're like, oh, that one had that in it. And, but you have to be like really stoic about it. So no one, no one knows that there's something going on in there.
Liz Wilson:Yeah. I guess, can you describe our, what it, what our sensory booth looks like? Um, from the outside, I know there's a little, you know, there's a light on that says on or off or, and so, but what's, what's behind the door.
Karl Arnberg:Sure. So for panelists, we have a special panel room where, um, tasters come and sit down, um, in a booth it's maybe a little less than three feet wide. Um, each booth is designed to be exactly the same. It has, um, dividers, uh, from floor to ceiling. So you can't see the people sitting around you. Uh, and in fact, they go past the, the front edge of the, the table so that you can barely see people walking behind you with your peripheral vision. Yeah. Um, that it's that way it's less distracting. Mm-hmm<affirmative> as people come and go from the, from this room, uh, each booth has, um, a list of the flavor attributes and kind of their associated descriptors. Um, all of the flavors that I'll I'll spike, uh, that way they have at least some references to what could be spiked in a, in a beer there's a light and a small door in each booth as well. The light is just a, a vacancy light, right. Somebody sits down and they flip the switch. And that tells me inside that somebody sitting there and is waiting for some samples of beer, I'll pour and prepare a, a sample or a flight of beer and pass it through the door to the panelists. On the other side, who then will go through the ballot that we, you can do on your phone or on an iPad and taste the beers as their prompt, as the program prompts you to taste. Mm-hmm<affirmative>.
Brett Willis:I like to give, uh, Karl a little thumbs up when he gives me the beer.<laugh> whenever the beer thumbs through, I can't help it. I give him a little thumbs up. I can only see his hands, but I know he can see my thumbs up.<laugh>
Karl Arnberg:I get some bows. I get some sign language"thank yous" too. Oh yeah. Everybody's
Brett Willis:Got their, everyone's got their thing. Yeah.
Karl Arnberg:Everybody's got their things.
Brett Willis:<laugh> that's good. This is, there's a lot of good stuff. I feel like this is like a two part, I know, two part podcast. Um, uh, the one, I don't know, I, I don't necessarily think we need to get super duper into the weeds on this, but I like it is so interesting to me thinking of describing beer, because so much of this, you know, a lot of what you're talking about, Karl, there are various views for these tests, but one of them is to literally try to, you know, describe the beer. What are we tasting in this beer? And because we have so many sort of yeast forward beers, quote unquote, you know, because the yeast is how the yeast eating the, the sugars is creating a lot of flavor that it creates these sort of like amorphous middle flavors that are really hard to describe. You know, it's really hard to pin it down as like that tastes like grapefruit or that tastes like mango or whatever. Like you just have to be very interpretive. So I feel like there's just a thing that I find really interesting is the difference between the descriptions we have internally. And then, then us in the marketing department having to translate those into something that sounds appetizing and approachable and accessible to somebody and is not throwing words out there, like, uh, I don't know, horse blanket
Liz Wilson:<laugh>,
Brett Willis:You know, that sort of thing. So I don't even know what my question is. I don't have a question
Karl Arnberg:I think it's a great point that this kind of tasting is so different than how you taste as a customer.
Liz Wilson:Yeah.
Karl Arnberg:Um, this, I describe it often as production tasting, just as much as, um, you have other production functions, this is you're moving samples through and, um, you're tasting them in a very, very specific way. It's not, you are sitting down with a flight of beers being led through and maybe pairing them with, with cheese or, or, uh, sitting around a table and talking about those descriptors. How would you use to describe to your friend what that beer tastes like? This is, um, much, much different and it's very specialized mm-hmm<affirmative>. Um, so where we can kind of come up with descriptors to talk about the beer internally. You're right. It does take a whole new side in marketing in your side of things, to be able to take those descriptors and say, which ones are important, which ones do we really want to convey as characteristic of this beer? Yeah. That people will be left with this impression after they've long gone, or after that Sam, that beer is long gone and they're looking at what they want to have next
Liz Wilson:Karl, to sort of relate this to, uh, a specific example. What are, you know, we take Allagash White, um, something that a lot of people are familiar with. What are some of the aromas that we are looking for? Um, when we describe this beer internally,
Karl Arnberg:Internally, we're looking for a lot of fresh yeast character, um, because when we're tasting samples of white here, it's the freshest of the fresh mm-hmm<affirmative> and you're gonna get the, you're gonna get a lot of yeast character up front, uh, a lot of fresh yeast character, which will have, um, a lot of esters and for our house yeast phenols as well. So esters are kind of a fruity class of chemicals. You see them a lot, uh, in fruits and they're used as flavorings for fruity candies, right? So yeast will produce those during fermentation. And they're the most concentrated when that beer is, is fresh. So especially this, um, flavor called isoamyl acetate if you've ever had banana laffy taffy, that is really characteristic that banana candy like, uh, aroma. Um, but also you'll see like, uh, the orange from the orange peel that we right. Spice white with bread dough and that wheatiness from all of the wheat and oats that go into the recipe. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and, uh, a phenol that you see often, uh, 4-vinyl guaiacol, another chemical produced by yeast can come off with this kind of vanilla frosting, like mm-hmm<affirmative> flavor. Uh, that's really, along with all of those kind of weird fruity flavors really kind of ties the room together.<laugh>
Brett Willis:Nicely done.
Liz Wilson:Yeah. Uh, so you can see, we, we may not wanna put on the label, like Allagash White vanilla frosting flavored, you know, like I think that's where we<laugh> after sort translate those or, or would, should we, yeah, they might like it. I don't know. Should we take a poll, let us know,
Brett Willis:Tell us it podcast@ allagash.com. Do you want Allagash White to say vanilla frosting flavor?<laugh><laugh> uh, but you're exactly right, Liz, is
Karl Arnberg:That, is that what you want? Sorry. Is that what you want people to think about that? Like, is that, is that what customers?
Brett Willis:If they buy it Karl! If they buy it, we'll put it on there.
Liz Wilson:Taste like, I think,
Brett Willis:Uh, no, but
Liz Wilson:I think to your point we don't do that is like, you know, we go through this, what you call production tasting. And so that we are like, so dialed in on the quality of this beer so that when a consumer has it, they almost don't have to think about it at all. They think about the good memories that, that it brings to them. It, you know, gives them the contact the, by which they've enjoyed it and that they can rely on enjoying it, tasting the same way from here to 20 years from now. And so I think that is, you know, that's ultimately sort of what we're going for.
Brett Willis:Yeah. And, and there's also the point of, I think, clarity in in terms from a marketing perspective, somehow being more confusing than a slight bit of artistry and how we describe stuff. Because I think if we put something like bread dough, orange and lemon notes on the, on the label and vanilla frosting, I think people would be like a, I think we found a lot of the more specific we are, the more that people think that that has actually gone into the beer, like, oh, you put bread dough in the beer. Like, you know, and it's not a, it's not a silly thing to think. It is just like, it, it's hard to kind of say aromas of versus like literally this thing's in there. And so then I think that's led us to this sort of like citrusy hazy, refreshing. Those are the three hallmark words that we've gone to for Allagash white that we think really encapsulates a lot of what makes it so wonderful. But as of course, we all internally know, and as Rob talks about all the time, like he says, I've always, I'm always finding something new to enjoying the beer. And I like a hundred percent agree with that. And like, believe that because it's one of those beers where depending on what you're doing, what you've had before, what your mindset is, I really do feel like I find some nice little new nook and cranny of that beer to taste and just like experience. And it's just surprising and delightful, but also just very easy to drink. So it's nice. We have, we have gone<laugh>
Liz Wilson:There's
Brett Willis:Far, it's too interesting. A subject, Karl. I know I had, like, we had more questions we didn't even get to, but maybe there'll
Liz Wilson:Be part two. Yeah. Part two must be around the clock
Brett Willis:Thank you so much, Karl.
Liz Wilson:Karl. Yeah.
Karl Arnberg:Thank you for having me!
Liz Wilson:So interesting. Thank you. Yeah. This has been an Allagash brewing production. And if you have something you want us to talk about on the show, shoot us a message at podcast@allagash.com.