Since we started in 1995, every single Allagash beer has been brewed with water that came from Sebago Lake. This pristine, and plentiful, water source is amazing in its own right: there's enough water in Sebago Lake to give every person on earth 100 gallons each, and still have water left over.
And, like all good things, we need to make sure that we preserve it.
In this episode, we talk with Paul Hunt of the Portland Water District and Matt Markot of Loon Echo Land Trust—both members of Sebago Clean Waters, a nonprofit partner of ours that is working to preserve Sebago Lake. You'll learn some staggering facts about our amazing water source, the strides Sebago Clean Waters is making in preserving it, and what you can do to help!
Since we started in 1995, every single Allagash beer has been brewed with water that came from Sebago Lake. This pristine, and plentiful, water source is amazing in its own right: there's enough water in Sebago Lake to give every person on earth 100 gallons each, and still have water left over.
And, like all good things, we need to make sure that we preserve it.
In this episode, we talk with Paul Hunt of the Portland Water District and Matt Markot of Loon Echo Land Trust—both members of Sebago Clean Waters, a nonprofit partner of ours that is working to preserve Sebago Lake. You'll learn some staggering facts about our amazing water source, the strides Sebago Clean Waters is making in preserving it, and what you can do to help!
This is From Maine, With Love, an Allagash Brewing podcast where we talk about beer our community here in Maine, and things that generally make us happy. Uh, and I'm very happy to welcome Paul Hunt, the Environmental Services manager of Portland Water District, and Matt Markot, executive director of Loon Echo Land Trust. And as always, Liz Liz Wilson here. Hey, and I'm Brett Willis, uh, senior Communication Specialist at Allagash.
Liz Wilson:So, Brett, we talked with our friends from Sebago Clean Waters today. We talked with Paul and Matt. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and, you know, Sebago Clean Waters, doing some really, um, great work to help conserve the land around Sebago Lake, which is the watershed that we belong to here in Portland. And I will just say, I'm feeling great. Yeah. It was a really positive and optimistic, uh, outlook on the work they're doing. And so, I don't know. Yeah.
Brett Willis:And if you're the type of person who thinks water is not cool, then this is not the podcast for you. Cause this makes water really cool. Uh, yeah. It's, it's fascinating and agreed. It's like, I, I say it during the podcast, but this is like one of the most hopeful things I've heard in the past, like, three years. So I'm like, yeah. I'm, I am jazzed up by the conversation we had Yeah. About water
Liz Wilson:Conversation. So, yeah. So tune in, uh, grab a glass of water. Yeah. And, uh, tune in to our
Brett Willis:Cool glass of water. Yeah.<laugh>. Uh, and yeah. And listen to how Sebago Clean Waters is going about conserving land around Sebago Lake, the source of all of the water that we at Allagash use. And one of the, it's the number one reason Allagash beer tastes good. Jason's gonna be really angry about that.<laugh> our brewmaster? No. It is one of the many reasons why our beer tastes great. You're gonna learn some facts about this water that's gonna kind of blow your mind. So, if that sounds good to you, well, give it a listen. Uh, before we dive into the topic at hand, which is gonna be talking about, uh, s Sebago Lake, our water source here at Allagash, and for many people in Maine, um, and also efforts that, um, Paul and Matt are undertaking to preserve that water source. Uh, I gotta ask some good secret questions,<laugh>, for each of you. We started it this way, it's gonna be a question that you actually want to answer. I hope so. Paul, we're gonna start with you. Uh, I've heard you're a fan of music, mostly from some, some sixties era music, that sort of thing. What's the most memorable live performance that you've, uh, witnessed? I was gonna say favorite, but I feel like Memorables, you know, it's a little more open.
Paul Hunt:I saw Wilco in lowell, mass. I don't know, maybe it was 10 years ago. I've seen them 31 times now, but I don't remember which one that was. Maybe it was my 23rd or 24th. But it started pouring, I mean, really pouring. And so for about 20 minutes, my brother and I were trying to stay dry, and then I just reached this moment where I thought, no, I don't wanna stay dry. And I just like embraced it. And my shoes were full of water, and I was, it was like, you dipped me in a lake and I loved it. Yeah. I thought, this is what rock and roll is supposed to be.
Brett Willis:That
Liz Wilson:Is, that's
Brett Willis:Awesome. That is an amazing answer. All right, Matt, yours, uh, here. You're, you're, you, you enjoy the outdoors, particularly some downhill skiing. What is your, uh, favorite type of trail? Are you a blue square, black diamond, double black, or a backcountry person? Yeah,
Matt Markot:That's a, that's a good question. Um, I mean, I like it all. Okay. You know, put me on two pairs of skis, it doesn't really matter. Yeah. Um, downhill, uphill, sideways,<laugh>, upside down. Um, I, I guess my philosophy about skiing is, um, whoever's having the most fun is winning the day. Ah. And so it doesn't really matter in that sense, like, who's, you know, what your objective is or what you're trying to ski. You know, you could be skiing for the first time ever. Yeah. And if you're having the most fun, then you're winning the day, as far as I'm concerned. But, um, I love it. What a great ski season we've had here in the Northeast. I mean, it's been kind of like, it's been a weird one, but it's a lot of good skiing and yeah. We're jealous of our friends out west, but they need the water, so, yeah. Um, happy for them. That's
Brett Willis:Good. That's good. I feel like when I was, I, I'm a snowboarder and I, I much of my experience is putting too much pressure on myself. Like, ah, I should be doing more stuff. I should be hitting that jump. But then I, I agree. Like, I'm just, I'll become a blue person, just kind of cruise. Get some good speed, get some sort of snow on the sides. It's good. I like that philosophy.<laugh>. Liz, are you, are you ready?
Liz Wilson:Oh, I'm ready. Brett.<laugh>.
Brett Willis:Liz always gets a question. All right. Most memorable recent food experience in Portland?
Liz Wilson:Gosh, lots to choose from. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, we went to the Garrison for the first time, um, maybe in, in March for my husband's birthday. And it was so lovely. And it was like a really crummy night. It was like drizzly freezing cold, but you're right on the river, and it was pretty quiet. And so we got to chat with, uh, the, the staff and just hear about all the foods. They have sort of small, the small plates, I guess. And they're all super interesting. And I love a good small plate because then I can try a lot of different things. And so I think that is probably my most memorable food experience recently. But, nice. You all know I'm at tandem at least once a week, so. Oh, yeah. It's, um, that's my go-to. Good. Just so, all right, Brett. Oh,
Brett Willis:We don't leave
Liz Wilson:You out
Brett Willis:Again. Oh, man.
Liz Wilson:What's your favorite hour of the day?
Brett Willis:Whoa, that. Wow. That takes me by a surprise. Oh, man. I'll, I'll give you, I'll give you one, I'll give you a very specific one. Five in the morning when I wake up before my children have woken up when they're, I know they're gonna wake up soon, but if I get a chance to make coffee and then read a little bit at five in the morning before it's even, like, that's like,
Liz Wilson:I'm right there with you. I'm usually six, six to seven before I have to like, really think about what's happening.
Brett Willis:Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I, I am like, you know, diametrically opposed to all the two o'clock people. Whoever's two o'clock out there, two o'clock can just be expunged from the record.
Paul Hunt:<laugh>.
Brett Willis:I don't know. I don't like two. No, actually, you can cut, you can cut that outta the podcast. I don't really have anything against the 2 o' clock people. We're gonna start. Yes. All right. I think, Paul, we're gonna start with you. And I think that the place to start is kind of a, is helping people become acquainted with Sebago Lake itself, what we're talking about today. And so I've watched some, some footage you've provided of, of some talks you've given. And I've, like, there are some incredible facts around Sebago Lake. So to rattle a few off, it's the second largest lake in Maine. It's the deepest lake in Maine. And it makes us, as I've heard you say, Paul, kind of the Saudi Arabia of water here in Maine. We have an abundance of water. And so can you kind of put the amount of water in Sebago Lake into perspective so that someone can kind of grasp that?
Paul Hunt:Um, sure. Um, Sebago Lake has about a trillion gallons of water, and I used to think a trillion was the same as infinite. Like, if, if you said that number to me 10 years ago, I would've said, well, that's like, you'd never reached the end of it. And then there was the great financial collapse of 2008, and we heard about trillions of dollars being lost overnight. So I know it's not infinite, but it's a very big number. And it's this big, um, our customers consume 22 million gallons of water in a day. And so over 365 days, that's 8 billion. So 8 billion gallons is a lot of water, but we have more than 800 billion. So in Sebago Lake, so therefore that's a hundred years. Um, I guarantee you there are communities in California that have one year in their reservoir, maybe three years. Wow. We have more than a hundred years. So, um, we really, if you ever read in the paper that Portland, Maine is short of water, then Armageddon has happened that will, that will not happen to us before. It happens to virtually everybody else. And so we're very fortunate and we have an obligation to, in my, in my view and in our view in for, to future generations to treat it like it's as precious as it is.
Brett Willis:Totally. You add another one too, about like, the amount of water we could give to every person on earth currently from just Sebago Lake.
Paul Hunt:Do you remember what that was? Well, there are 8 billion people on earth. Right, right, right. So that's a hundred gallons per person. And we wouldn't run out for every single human being on earth. Right. That's how much water is in Sebago Lake.
Brett Willis:Ah, it's so nuts.
Liz Wilson:And we serve and, uh, Sebago Lake, I think it's around 200,000 people it serves roughly. Yes. Right. And that is sort of the greater Portland area. Are we consuming average amounts of water? 22 million? Is that what you said a day? Yes. That feels like a lot of water.
Paul Hunt:Yeah. But for, I would, I would answer it this way that we all, we all imagine, and I just got this number recently, or this graph, and so I, it surprised me we all, that as population grows, as there are more people, we are just consuming more and more of everything, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Right? Right. We have been providing about 20 to, between 18 and 22 or 24 million gallons per day every day since 1963. I've saw the graph and it's flat. Wow. It's flat. And, and yet, okay, we're adding about 500 new services, a service meaning a connection to the system. Like a house would be connected. That's a service. Yeah. We add about 500 each year. And we've been doing that, you know, steadily there happen, you know, cuz there's more houses built and more connections, and yet we're not consuming more water. So that's another piece of good news. You know, you don't get good news Yeah. That often. But yeah, we have a hundred years worth of water. Our population has grown since 1963 in Greater Portland, but we are still using about the same amount of water as a, as a society, as a, as a community as we were then.
Brett Willis:Do you have a hypothesis for why that would be? Is it efficiency or
Paul Hunt:There's no, I'm
Brett Willis:Sure multiple factors.
Paul Hunt:Yes. No, no question. That there's efficiency. People are more mindful. You buy a new toilet nowadays and it uses a gallon instead of it using five gallons and all of that combined, you know, it's, it's, it's a good, it's a, it's a really good thing to think about cuz sometimes can it feel like the challenges of environment are so big that there's nothing anyone can do? Oh, throw up your hands and just forget it. Well, actually when we work together, you know, that's in individual decisions being made in every home, all added together actually has resulted in we can provide water to more people without using up more of the resource.
Brett Willis:It's like the most optimistic thing I've heard. I know. In like three years.<laugh>.
Liz Wilson:Wow. We're getting off on a great foot. Yeah.<laugh>.
Brett Willis:Um, so I, another thing that actually ties to this, I think that this sort of idea of things remaining, uh, static over the years, uh, is the quality of the water. So can you talk a little bit to the quality of the water in Sebago Lake?
Paul Hunt:Um, of course there are a hundred different ways to measure water quality and we don't have time to go over all 100 of them. Sure. I'm just,
Brett Willis:It's like 95.
Paul Hunt:I'm just gonna give you two examples. One thing that a water utility like ours does is every single day we test the lake water before we've done any treatment at all. So this is what we call raw water. This is what's in the lake, and any lake is gonna have some bacteria in it. There are birds flying over it, there are animals, there are people in the watershed, there are people swimming in the lake. So you, you're not going to, it's, it would be, it would not be unreasonable to expect. And we always, you know, anybody that samples from a lake is gonna detect some bacteria. So the Safe Drinking Water Act says a system such as ours needs to test for the raw water every day for fecal coliform bacteria. And as the name implies, these are bacteria that you would associate with the warm blooded mammals and the intestinal tract of warm blooded mammals. Okay. So we're supposed, we test that every day, and the number has to be fewer than 20 colonies per a hundred milliliters of water 90% of the time. So what that means is that when we take a sample, 10% of the time, we could get a number bigger than 20. And that's still okay because remember, the water's about to be disinfected three times. Right? Right. But you don't wanna see a lot of fecal bacteria in your wa raw water, even though you're disinfecting it. Okay. Right. So we can fail that test is a way to put it 90, uh, 10% of the time. And we're still okay. We've done that test, we started, the requirements started in the early nineties. We've done it about, I think the number I last calculated was 7,000 times. So if we've done that test 7,000 times and we can fail it 10% of the time, that means 700 times we could have had a number greater than 20 and we would be okay. 700 we've had mm-hmm.<affirmative>, we've had a number over 20 twice Wow. In 30 years of testing. So Sebago Lake is, not only is it an enormous quantity of water that we're so lucky to have, it is Yeah. An outstanding quality. Like when we show these numbers to our colleagues in other states and in other, even other parts of Maine, they, they don't accuse us of faking it, but it, it almost seems unreal<laugh>. Like it just seems too good to be true.
Brett Willis:And so how are we faking it Then? Sure. Paul, can you, can you let us know how Sure.
Paul Hunt:That's amazing. So I, I'll give you one other example and that's turbidity. You know, you, you just, as the name implies turbidity is how much crud is kind of floating around in the water. Could be algae, could be dirt. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So, and we measure that continuously. So there's a meter on the intake as the water is drawn in from the lake, it's running through this device that shines light through it and mm-hmm.<affirmative>, the amount of light that gets deflected away is a measure of how much, of how much turbidity is in the water. We are, we have to stay under five, the turbidity units doesn't matter, but under five Sure. Our numbers, we have it continuously. I can show you the graph. Over 10 years, it's never been over 0.5. In fact, it's usually under 0.3 and it never varies. We can get a storm event, we, it doesn't make any difference cuz we're drawing water off the bottom of this trillion gallons of water. So it's sort of protected from, I'm sure at the surface, if you have a big rain event, you could probably see, you would see the turbidity rise a little bit up there mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but down where we're drawing the water from it, we never see a number that's even close to 10% of what we have to be under. So there's another example of, we, we just have such a precious resource that we are gifted with. Let's just not mess it up, I guess is the way I would, uh, the advice I would give.
Brett Willis:Totally. So I've got, I've got one for Matt then that ties directly to this. So the quality of the water is not necessarily coming from the lake itself, but the land around the lake. Could you kind of talk a little bit to how that works?
Matt Markot:Yeah. So the, the land around the lake, otherwise known as a watershed mm-hmm.<affirmative> is supplying all of that water into the lake itself. Whenever there's a rainstorm or we have snow melts, that water ends up back into the lake. It's flowing through rivers, streams, uh, sometimes culverts, et cetera, making its way slowly, sometimes quickly back into Sebago Lake.
Brett Willis:There you go. And so it's that, it's the quality of that land around the lake that is giving us the quality of the water within the lake. And I guess what are, what are some of the main factors, uh, like what are the most important parts of that land around that that makes it so the water is getting filtered?
Matt Markot:We've got a heavily forested landscape Sure. In the Sebago Lake watershed. And, you know, there's, there's a lot of reasons for that. The legacy of land ownership in the Sebago Lake watershed is not that different from land ownership throughout Maine, uh, has a long history here of industrial land ownership supplying raw material to paper mills in, in Westbrook, like sappy and, and elsewhere. And the, the dominant land owning regime for decades and decades and decades in the watershed was for the commercial production of, of timber. And if you want to sell trees, you need to have trees<laugh> on the landscape. Sure. And, um, and that's, that's one of the reasons. And, um, there are many others as well. Just a, a, a long legacy of private land ownership of, of folks who are, have been great stewards and an ethos of stewardship forest land stewardship in Maine. It's, it's a, uh, it's a story of mayers doing what mayers do, which is spending time on their land mm-hmm.<affirmative> and deriving income from it. Yeah. When and how they can Interesting I
Liz Wilson:Think between that and what Paul mentioned, you know, so what do we do with this sort of precious resource? And, you know, we've been fortunate as a brewery to work alongside you in partnership for a few years now. Um, so, you know, tell us a little bit about Sebago Clean Waters and the efforts that it's, you have come to sort of create to, to, you know, make I feel like a greater impact, uh, as a group of people instead of any single entity trying to, to, to protect Sebago Lake.
Matt Markot:Yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll start. Sure. Probably back in the eighties, um, before I was born<laugh>, um, age myself there really quickly,<laugh>, um, millennials, uh, shout out. Yeah, there you go. Um, and in, in the eighties and Maine, there was a, um, a big transition in land ownership occurring, happening all throughout the state, uh, paper mills that had been vertically integrated, meaning they owned the mill, they own the land, they own the resource. Um, that, that model was changing, that dynamic was changing. And we, we were seeing in Maine, um, a large transition in land ownership. And with that, um, sort of became, and for, and for other reasons as well evolved, the land conservation movement as we, as we know it today in Maine. The Land trust that I worked for Luco Land Trust was formed in 1987. That's like the year it feels like when land trusts were reforms like 85, 19 86, 19 87.
Liz Wilson:They just made one seal and everyone used it, so Yeah.
Matt Markot:Yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah. Um, and so our Land Trust has been working to conserve land in the, in the watershed since then. And, you know, like a lot of sort of, you know, grassroots startup non-profits for the first 10, 15, even 20 years of the Land Trust existence, it was led by volunteers. Um, it wasn't until 2000 that the Land Trust had its first full-time staff and, and did a lot of great work. Um, did it at a, at a, I don't wanna call it a slow pace, but a pace that I think was indicative of that grassroots effort and the ability, capacity, resources that were available. Yeah. And then in the two thousands, um, uh, a predecessor, um, uh, at, at Loon Echo, a former executive director had this great idea to get in touch with Paul at, uh, at Portland Water District and say, Hey, we think that our land conservation work is probably having an impact on your water resource downstream. I mean, the science is, you know, pretty clear there. Yeah. How, how would you like to help us, uh, protect land? And, um, and there was a land deal that the Land Trust was working on. And, uh, Paul can probably talk more about that specific moment of literally when the first financial contribution from Portland Water District was made Yeah. To a land conservation project in the watershed. But that, that was, that was the starts. And as land trusts have gone since then, um, and I'm speaking just to the, to the sort of movement as a whole, we've gotten a a lot more sophisticated, we've become more professional mm-hmm.<affirmative>, we understand how to gain access to resources, financial resources, and of course the need for the services that we provide is discontinued to increase for a variety of reasons. Totally. And so in 20 15, 16, somewhere around there, we, um, we sort of got together and said, let's, let's do more, let's do even more than what we're doing. And we solicited the help of our friends at the Nature Conservancy in Maine, trust Republic Land Regional and, and national Conservation organizations to catalyze the work that was being done. And that's how sebago Clean Waters was born. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and I, I I can say, um, undoubtedly from my position, it has worked. And what we've been able to do since then is, um, significantly increase the pace of land conservation in the watershed, really in response to changes here in southern Maine. Totally. We're seeing development pressures increase, we're seeing people move here. It's great. Who doesn't wanna live in Maine? Right? That's, yeah.
Liz Wilson:Yep.
Matt Markot:I can't blame people for wanting to be here. Yeah. We wanna welcome people here, but we've gotta figure out how to do development in a way that's not gonna impact these resources and especially our water resources. Totally.
Brett Willis:So I have two, two follow up questions. Follow up question. One is, who are the members of Sebago Clean Waters for our listeners putting On spot?
Matt Markot:Help me if I, help me out if I leave anybody out here. I believe now we're up to 10. Really?
Brett Willis:10 members? Seven. That was where my brain was at.
Matt Markot:Okay.
Brett Willis:Awesome.
Matt Markot:Yeah. So, um, so of course Portland Water District, um, the Land Trust, I work for Loon Echo Land Trust based outta Bridgeton, um, Western Foothills Land Trust based in Norway, Lake Environmental Association. It's a Lake Association based in Bridgeton as well. Mahoosik Land Trust based in Bethel. Uh, I mentioned Trust For Public Land, which is a national conservation organization, the Open Space Institute. It may have said The Nature Conservancy in Maine already. Um, the Highstead Foundation, which is a conservation foundation based in Connecticut. Paul, who else am I missing here? Um, Friends of Casco Bay. Very
Paul Hunt:Good. I was gonna have that.
Matt Markot:Uh, yep, that's a, that's a program of the University of Southern Maine based in Portland. And if you're looking for another podcast, uh, um, content for their podcast, the story of Casco Bay. Yeah. Mm. And what has happened in Casco Bay in the last 40 years is another incredible Yeah. Uh, story of resource protection here. That's awesome. Um, and Paul, uh, Presumpscot Regional Land Trust, um, which is a, a Portland-based land conservation organization.
Paul Hunt:I think you got all of them. I wasn't counting. I will feel terrible if we left anybody out<laugh>. Cause
Liz Wilson:We can, we can make sure we can put it in the notes on our, our podcast. So, um,
Brett Willis:Yes, please. What,
Paul Hunt:What I wanna add to that was a great job, Matt. You get the a for, um, for remembering all of the organizations. It's, we are very different. Like there's a water utility, there's some land trust, there's some national conservation organizations, there's an estuary partnership, there's a Lakes Association. And you might say, why are they all at the same table working together? And the answer is conserved. Forest yields so many different benefits, not just clean water, which it does, it's critical to clean water. And that's what brings, that's what sort of first brought us to the table. But others joined us because they said, well, what about sustainable forestry? Many of the lands that are conserved through our effort are working forest lands. So they're producing woods jobs and woods products as they're cleaning the water. There's wildlife habitat is being mm-hmm.<affirmative> pres conserved and protected. And connected. Like, if you can protect several pieces of property that gives dear more room to roam, which is really important. There's fisheries, there's clean, cleaner air, there's carbon sequestration, which is kind of a, I, when I first heard that word, I thought, that's a terrible word for it. But it's like locking up carbon in the soil and in the, in the trees so that it's not in the atmosphere where it's leading to changes in climate. So all of those things, I often say to people, you can either spend$8 doing eight different things or spend$1 on forest conservation and eight good things come out of it. And so the partnership is so powerful because each partner brings a different kind of skillset and a different ethic. And a dif you know, we are relate, you know, we are related, we have related goals, but they're different. And therefore it's almost like, I'm not sure how to do this, Matt, do you know how to do this? And he'll say, oh, Lune echo's done that many times. And so then they're contributing that other times they'll say, can the water district do this? And oh yeah, that's easy for us, but hard for you. And, um, you have to kind of leave ego behind organizational ego, and you just have to hold hands sort of and say, let's do this together.
Brett Willis:That's awesome.
Liz Wilson:Talk a little bit about some of your goals and, you know, as a, as a collective, a collective, uh, and then you know, where you are today since sort of Sebago Clean Waters was formed.
Brett Willis:And I think I have a, I have a question that might come right before that that'll lead you into it. So Paul, you've talked about the sort of strides that have been made to preserve or conserve this land and kind of like laying out what happened in, you know, like the previous a hundred years of Portland Water District, and then what has happened in the previous, like 20,
Paul Hunt:I guess. Great. I love that question. Okay. So, you know, land has been conserved in the watershed even before 1987 when, you know, as Matt points to like year one for the land trust, um, because there's Sebago Lake State Park, there's a little bit of White Mountain National Forest in the watershed, and there are conserved lands of other types. And the water district purchased some land over the, over the last century, um, around the lower bay, which is where our water intakes are. So I call it the green call around Lower bay is land that we've purchased and that we own to protect, to protect, to protect the lake. All, all that together, 150 years of conservation conserved about 10% of the land area in the watershed. As Matt said, all the land around the lake that drains in the lakes called the watershed, 10% of it is conserved forest. 90% of it by or 85 or so is, is forest. It's healthy forest. But you can see the gap there that it's healthy forest. Right. But it's privately owned and therefore could be developed. So Right. Our goal is to get that number from 10% conserved to 25% conserved. We're already up almost to 16%. So wow, 150 years, 10% got conserved in 20 years, another 6%, and we're still going. And 25% is a, is a more in line with what a water supply really, you know, there really should be. Others have 80% of their watershed protected. Sometimes it's 75, sometimes it's 30 10% is really at the low end. And so I, so here's the great irony is we have the, the most quantity of water, you know, of anybody that I, you know, any water utility I know who really has a hundred years worth of water in reserve, and it's outstandingly clean because of the forest, but the forest is not protected from development. And we're not trying to pre prevent development, as Matt said, we need development, we need people to move to, you know, people are gonna move to Maine and they need a place to live. And we are supportive of that. We're not, but if we can get the watershed up to 25% conserved, and then the other, the rest of it is well-managed and cared for as it has been, we'll be in so much better. You know, we'll be handing something to our children, our grandchildren, that they will thank us for
Brett Willis:That. So that, it just kind of raises the question that I've always had is like, what is, what is the difference between good development and sort of less good development? You know, what are we looking for out of that?
Matt Markot:And I'll, I'll tell you that, you know, we're, we're not, um, we're not developers, we're not planners. Sure, sure. Right. You know, um, we are, um, you know, I'm, I'm a land conservation practitioner. Paul's a a water scientist, but, um, we have, you know, we have opinions both personal and professional about this<laugh>. Sure. And the, the type of development that we don't wanna see in the watershed is what most people think about as sprawl. Okay. Sprawl development. Um, there has been this sort of, um, ethos or, or, um, way of being in many rural parts of the country that, uh, associates density with bad environmental outcomes. There's this idea that, you know, if I go live in my 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 acres and care for it, that I'll be doing better by the environment. And not to say that folks who have their, you know, little slice of heaven out here in rural Maine aren't great stewards of their land. Right. But again, as more people are moving here, we've gotta look at what the data and what the science tells us. And what, what that tells us is that higher density development is better for environmental outcomes. Here's an example. If you can take a hundred acre piece of land, if we can concentrate our development on 15 acres of it and protect the remaining 85 acres, that's gonna lead to a better environmental outcome, that's great. In order to, to create the, the, the types of services and development that we need on the 15 acres to provide for a growing population, we've gotta be smart and innovative and creative about what that development looks like. Um, so thinking about, um, where services are related to people, this is, is a, this is especially an issue in rural communities where people are driving 40 minutes sometimes to get to a grocery store mm-hmm.<affirmative> or, you know, 30 minutes to get to a doctor. Right. Or, you know, there's kids on school buses, they're spending an hour and a half on the school bus Wow. To get to school in rural Maine. So anyways, that's, you know, that's the paradigm that we want to use and that, or that we believe in, in terms of that relationship between development and environmental and natural resource protection.
Liz Wilson:And I think it's worth mentioning that Sebago Lake is not in a rural part of Maine, and it's a lake that is a multi-use purpose. It's, it's only about 15 miles away from Portland. And so it's, it is a fairly dense, you know, area considering the whole state of Maine. And it is used, there's a, you know, a lot of homes that surround the lake is used for recre recreational purposes. People enjoy it. So it's not, you know, this is a lake that a lot of people enjoy and is not just solely, you know, for our, uh, you know, protected. And you can't, you can't enjoy it. So I think it's worth, you know, for anyone that's listening that's not local to Maine, like this is a lake that gets a ton of use from the community. And so I think as you're talking about development, you of course wanna strike that balance where people that come here and, you know, can still enjoy that. And we're also doing the, the work of, um, keeping it protected for the future.
Paul Hunt:If you think about, you know, Maine is so surprised. Why do people wanna move here? Well, I, I always say there are two kind, there are two, two types of people in Maine, those who were born here, and those that rushed here because it's such a great place. Well, every, both of those types of people, either you, you were born here and you never wanna leave, or you were born elsewhere and you came here, treasure the woods. There's not, I've never met a person who lives in Maine that doesn't treasure the woods. And so what Sebago Clean Waters is trying to do, um, is to ensure to keep Maine, Maine, which means healthy, you know, working forests, good for water, quality room for people to live. But if you wanna buy a, if you're gonna build a house in Maine, or come and buy a house or, or rent, you want woods around you, or you, you wouldn't come to me and you'd go someplace else. And so I, I've given probably 50 talks about what we're doing over the years, um, almost since before Matt was born, but not quite that long.<laugh>. But it has been
Liz Wilson:<laugh>.
Paul Hunt:I've been working on this for a long time, and I've given a lot of talks, and I can, I can read the audience, I think pretty well. And I also field questions. There's, I've not met a person that doesn't like the idea of let's conserve some of the main forest so that our water is clean. Who's against that? There is nobody against it. Um, and so, and that's why I feel like we have such support. We, I've not met anybody that says, I don't like what you're trying to do, how we do it, and the details of it. Okay. We can disagree on maybe a detail here or there, but the goal of what we're trying to do is just keep main, main for all the main people who are here now, and all the ones who are coming.
Brett Willis:So this is kind of a good segue into how have partners helped in that sort of goal? You know, you have everyone who's a part of, you know, Sebago, clean Waters directly has a very direct hand in that. And then I guess like, you know, we are obviously one of the partner partners, but I feel like there have been multiple, you know, there have been a lot of people who have been involved in this. So how does that kind of, how do partners help?
Paul Hunt:So, um, Matt, if you, if I can start, and then I think since you have been in much more involved, please start with Partners<laugh>, then I have, I, I want you to take it from there, but I'm going to give you the Water district perspective because Sure. I was, you know, Matt's predecessor at Luka who approached me and said, we're trying to conserve Forest. Would the water district help? You know, I, I remember thinking it sounds like a great idea. Like why wouldn't we? But we didn't have a program for this. We didn't have, we weren't really going down this road, it was almost like that idea was born that day. And our board has been so supportive. But what they've also said is there are more, there are many beneficiaries, as I talked about earlier, a conserved piece of forest in the watershed does benefit all of our customers, and therefore it would make sense that the water district would be contributing to that. But there are many other beneficiaries, hunting, fishing, uh, all of those other things I said. And so our board said, we will give up to 25% of what it costs to conserve forest, but we need the other partners to bring in the other 75%. And that's a pretty heavy lift to ask Loon Echo Land Trust and other partners. But we felt like that was a fair sort of number to say that's what our customers are benefiting from this. But you find all the other people who are benefiting and let's all bring the money to the table. And so it has worked well, but it's a lot of work to find that other 75% of the funding. And so, Matt, I'm gonna turn that over to you so you can talk about that and all the, the benefits we've received from business partners.
Matt Markot:Yeah. I mean, this work is expensive. There's no way around it. Yeah. We're talking about purchasing real estate, you know, that's what we're doing. And it's expensive. And the other thing too is, is communicating about this. And that's, and this podcast, for instance, telling this story, making sure folks are aware Yeah. Both of, of this resource and also the threats to it. And to Paul's point, you know, who doesn't like the story? It's an incredible story. Yeah. But the story, you know, the, the ending is still unwritten. Um, and I, I believe there's a great ending here. But, but we don't know that. And we, we've got this opportunity to write that story, to create our own ending. And that's where partners are, are just so critical. There, there are so many things to care about, to be passionate about in the world today. Yeah. Can be overwhelming at times. Right. And, you know, where can we as individuals, you know, what are the action steps we can take? What, what can we do? You know, where can we apply our passions and our values? And, you know, that's, that's what this is all about, right? We're, we're sharing a value proposition to people. And you know, if, if you, if you do a Google search of, uh, land Trust, Loon Echo Land Trust might be, I don't know, you know, ninety ninth or something, or you know, 9,000, I dunno. Right. You know, it's just, it's hard. It's hard, as you guys know. It's, it's, it's, it's hard to, to get an audience Yeah. In a really competitive and large communication space. And so, you know, the work that Allagash and and others have done to amplify this story, um, is essential. You know, we, we couldn't do it without these partnerships. And, and then the financial support as well. Yeah. You know, is critical. Every dollar counts. You know, we're, we're literally, you know, when we're getting ready to close on a piece of real estate, we're literally like counting pennies. Yeah. Yeah. At the end of the day to make sure, you know, everything's adding up. So I tell folks, you know, you know, if they're like, I can only, you know, I can only give$5. It's like, well, that might be the last$5 we need Yeah. To purchase, you know, 1500 acres of land. Um, and to conserve that and make sure it's available to you and your kids to hunt and hike and mountain bike and to ski, et cetera, et cetera. So, um, yeah, the, the Paul's got a great, um, uh, sort of, um, story he likes to tell, or it's not really a story. It's like, uh, maybe an a fable or something, but it's called partnership. It's called Partnership Math. Paul's Partnership math. Oh,<laugh>. And, um, I'm gonna try to tell it Paul, Paul, I'm gonna tell your, your partnership math equation here,<laugh>. Um, but one plus one typically equals two. Right. And in a partnership, or at least a well-functioning partnership, one plus one can equal three. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> or five or seven. Um, and, and that's the benefit. That's that sort of exponential benefit that partnerships can bring. And partnerships aren't easy. Right. You know, and, and it takes the right partners who understand each other, who are willing to work with each other, that, that give and take. We're so lucky to have those types of partnerships within Sebago Clean waters. Um, yeah. And let's see. Maybe one plus one will equal 21 day. I don't know. Is there a limit to your partnership?
Paul Hunt:Well, I mean, the contributions that Allagash has given, like Matt said, this podcast is we are really grateful because we want people to hear the story. But as, as you know, Allagash has also contributed money to our, our cause and individuals have, and other, other, um, business partners and foundations. Every one of those contributions is magnified because as a water utility protecting a drinking water supply, sometimes there are federal dollars that are available to water utilities to do work like this. But it ha it always comes with a match requirement. You know, it's not money that just is handed over to water utility. You have to show that you're Dr. And, and I love the idea of Match. When I first started getting into this work, I thought This match thing drives me crazy. It's so important because it, it sh it's sort of like the federal government saying, we'll help you to fund your effort, but you have to show us that locally everybody's behind this, or you have, and, and so every dollar that is donated to Sebago Clean Waters really becomes two, three or$4 because there are federal dollars available to water utilities and to land trust. Sometimes there can be foundation money and foundations will often say, where's the match? Because, and, and we have worked really, really hard and we value every dollar, as Matt said, every dollar that's that's contributed makes a difference because it can leverage other dollars. And that's how we've gotten this far. And we're, we're not done. We're, we're in the middle of a process. And, um, but it feels like, what I often say to our board is, this is happening in part, you know, because we put the 25% on the table first. Once you do that, then, then a Land Trust can say, we've already got a commitment of 25% of what we need. And the donor likes to hear that and says, well, okay, I'll write a check, because now I know that it's magnified. And so every dollar from Allagash has made a big difference for us.
Liz Wilson:Yeah. It's, it's wonderful to hear. And I feel like maybe Brett, you and I should have started at the top of the program with a little bit more context as to why we're having this conversation. But Sebago Clean Waters has been a huge, you know, a, a wonderful partner of ours for a few years now. And, you know, beside the very large fact that we are a brewery based in Portland, the employees of Allagash live in Portland and consume the water, um, just personally and, you know, water is essential for our livelihoods, but brewing beer is a water intensive process. It's a key ingredient in, in beer. And so, um, ensuring that we have the quality of water that we have currently in the future is, is so important to us. And so, um, you know, the, the work that the Sebago Clean Waters team and partners are doing is just, um, sort of a no-brainer for us to, to support. And so I think we use, I don't have too many stats here. I think we, the latest number I heard Brett, 3.1 gallons of water. That's right. Yeah. Per gallon of beer. So it's a lot of water that gets used, um, for brewing. Yeah. Uh,
Brett Willis:And that's actually, yeah, that's taken a lot of work to get down to, honestly, for us. Cuz there are some, I think that's about half the industry average is what we understand. And so there's, you know, there are lot breweries that use quite a bit more water for beer, but at the same time, like using as little water as possible and then giving back. The way that we've kind of structured our donations is that we donate 10 cents per barrel of, uh, beer that we brew. And so that as we brew more beer, then we donate more money, uh, to Sebago clean waters to preserve it. And so I think that's so far in our sort of three, I think three years of being involved, it's been$41,000. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> ultimately mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yeah. Is that right, Liz?
Liz Wilson:Yeah. We just looked this up the other day, which
Brett Willis:Is great. And that's great. There, there's a point that I wanna make too, that I think Paul and you, uh, Paul and Matt, you were both talking about is just like, there can be this feeling when faced with such a humongous task that is like, ah, you know, I only have, like you said it, Matt, of like that$5, that's all I have. But it's like, it really is, every, every gain we make is like a permanent gain. You know, it's not like that 17% ever goes away, it's just, you just keep, have to creeping up and up and up and it's like, I don't know. It's, it's pretty inspiring once you see like, you know, if everyone's just putting in a little bit, just a little bit, the, just kind of keeping it in mind, you can achieve the, we can achieve this thing for this. Like, I'm really glad we started talking about Sebago Lake just as a lake because it's like, I feel like I take it for granted how good the water is here. But then, you know, like hearing about that, thinking about that, every time I go to the tap, I do honestly a little bit, every time I go to the tap, I'm just like, oh, good old Maine water.
Liz Wilson:So it's like I, either of you will know this step better than I, it's like one of 50 water sources in the country that doesn't require filtration. Correct. Correct me if I'm wrong there.
Paul Hunt:That, that is correct. Remember I mentioned that one measure of lake water quality is turbidity and mm-hmm.<affirmative>, if a lake or a river that you're using as a drinking water supply becomes too turbid or has turbid episodes, like after a storm event, which some do like, and um, then you have to have some kind of physical barrier between your wa your source water and your customers. In other words, you have to remove the particles so that the disinfection will work, will and will work efficiently. And well, Sebago Lake is one of about 50 or so water supplies in the country out of 13,000, by the way. So 50 out of 13,000 that is so clean that it does not require that filtration step. So not only is that great news, because that means we've got a clean source that can be enjoyed by people for swimming and boating and everything and fishing. So that's great right there. But also the cost of a filtration plant, we, our last estimate is it would cost 150 million for us to build that. And remember, almost everybody has already done that. 12,950 water supplies have already built that filtration plant and we're a nonprofit. You would pay for that. You know, it would just, yeah. It would have to be added to water rates to pay for that. So we don't wanna do that. We would rather avoid that both because that's money. We'd rather not spend, you'd, we, it's your money we'd rather not spend, but, but it also means the lake is cleaner and, and, and all the land around it, and the watershed is available for habitat and hiking and all that. So like, again, who would be against this? But I would also say that if you were to, if a lake were to decline such that you had to build filtration, it could be done, like engineers could engineer a system to remove the particles. It could be different, I mean, in, in New Orleans they use Mississippi River water, which I'm sure is not pristine like Sebago Lake water, right? So it can be done, but to treat water to remove those particles, you add chemicals to do that, use power to do that electricity, that, and that costs money. And so it's, and it's not as safe. Like what would be safer to never have the pollutants in the water or to allow the lake to decline so the pollutants are there and then engineer the removal of them. What would you rather do? Of course you'd rather just never have those pollutants in there. So it's really a no regret strategy, what we're doing, because it's only, only good things are gonna accrue if we can ensure that that watershed forest stays Healthy.
Matt Markot:And it's also a lot cheaper<laugh> to protect the watershed.<laugh>. Yeah, it's a lot. You know, it, it's ex I talked about how expensive it is and it is expensive, but it's not 150 million expensive. Yeah. Our late assessments are anywhere from 30 to 75 million to reach our, our watershed protection goals. Um, you know, and that, and things can change, real estate markets can change, et cetera. Um, the cost of land ownership will change, but that's a lot, that's a lot better than$150 million. And that's just the, the, the first time cost. It's the startup cost. It's not including those annual operating costs. So it's, you know, and with a fil you, you know, you can't hunt in a water filtration plant, you know, you can't go ride your bike in a water filtration plant. Right. You can do that on conserved land. And even though that number is still a big number, you know, the numbers that Matt just put out there, the cost of the land, the water district's trustees have said, we'll contribute up to 25% of that. So take that number and divide it by four and you're down in the 10 million range say, or 150 million, which is, which makes more sense. And so that's really why the partnership formed, because all the partners are better able to reach the goals that we share together. If we all worked separately, it would cost more and we would do less.
Brett Willis:Totally.
Liz Wilson:We had a friend, a brewery friend visit a couple years ago from Pennsylvania now that's great. And he, Dave, you know, he was there to enjoy our beer and to, I just to show him around Portland and he was like, yeah, the beer is great, but I just wanna take the water home<laugh>. And we were like, you know what, we're okay with that. You know, he had just, he could not get over how good our water tasted here. And I think like Brett, you know, we can sort of take it for granted because we don't really know anything else. But yeah, there are definitely other parts of this country that, you know, this is, this is a, a really, uh, special thing. So, um,
Brett Willis:I think, yeah, the takeaway is pretty clear. I think Matt and Paul, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like the takeaway is if you want to be involved or if you want to help out, go to sebago clean waters.com. I think it's actually, I have it right here. It's yeah, sebago clean waters.org actually, or just search Sebeago Clean Waters on Google. Like a normal person who doesn't put in full URLs into their browser. Uh, and you know, give, if you, if you, if you believe in this, if you're near us, or even if you're not near us, I think it's, it's a, a great idea to, to help out.
Matt Markot:Yeah. Yeah. And drink Allagash beers. There you go. And there, there you go. And there are, there are other, uh, breweries in Portland who have made, you know, similar pledges or contributions. So, you know, drink beer from Portland, Maine and enjoy the incredible quality. I mean, I was just out in Utah skiing<laugh>, of course, talking about skiing and, um, no offense to, to Utah and Salt Lakes Great is a great city, but man, they, the beer is not
Liz Wilson:Because it,
Matt Markot:It's here in Maine, so drink Maine beer. It's incredible. It's incredible. And you can support, you know, this work while you're drinking your beer.
Paul Hunt:I'd like to add, make one other point if I could, and that is that sure. I, we all, I feel like we are all thinking about how can we treat people more equitably? How can we be more fair? How can we do good by all people, not some people. And yeah, I feel so good about the work that we're doing because the water that is being protected is consumed by rich and poor. It everybody is benefited. Yeah. And the land that Loon Echo Land Trust and our other partners are conserving, is open for public access in many cases. Most of the, you know, there's, it's one of our virtues or one of our values is we want to conserve for us that will allow public access. So the land is being protected for all and the water is being kept clean for all equally. It doesn't matter who you are, you're benefiting. And, and so those kinds of things just make me feel good about and I and it's forever too. This is the other thing is conserve land. When, when the land, when the land trust conserve puts an easement on land, that means these woods are gonna treat our water naturally, forever. And yeah. So, you know, again, when when do you get a chance to work on something that is forever for all and all benefit e equally, you know, I just feel so good about it and I hope people listening Will, will hear that too and, and, um, be moved to help us.
Brett Willis:Awesome.
Liz Wilson:Yeah. Thank you both. This was just, uh, it was a joy to talk with both of you and appreciate it. I feel like I, I am feeling better, uh, about the state of being, which is, can be tough, uh,<laugh> these days. So, um, really appreciate it, uh, taking the time to join us here.
Brett Willis:Yeah, thanks so much.
Matt Markot:Thank you guys. Thanks for having
Brett Willis:Us. Great. See
Paul Hunt:You later. Bye.
Liz Wilson:That's it. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, thanks everybody. We did it. That's it,<laugh>.
Brett Willis:Well, Paul and Matt, thank you. It's been a pleasure. Yeah. Really
Paul Hunt:Very much. Appreciate it. Have a great
Liz Wilson:Weekend. Yep,
Matt Markot:You too. Have a great weekend. Bye-Bye.
Brett Willis:This has been an Allagash Brewing production. And if you have something you want us to talk about on the show, shoot us a message at podcast@ allagash.com.