From Maine, With Love - An Allagash Brewing Podcast

S3 Episode 8: For the Love of Lager

• Season 3 • Episode 8

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With the arrival of Allagash Lager, our easy-drinking, crisp, and refreshing new release, we wanted to go on a trip down lager (memory) lane, to look back at all of the innovative, interesting, and totally unexpected lagers that came before it. We also talk about the development of this lager itself, and how it came down to a very difficult choice between three, very highly rated, lager recipes. Brett is joined by lager aficionado (and R&D Brewer) Corey McNutt and Hospitality Director Emily Wallace to give a full perspective, both inside the brewery and out, of our lager-brewing trajectory.

Corey:

You know, you got a lager in

Emily:

front of you. Put a beer in my hand. I'm going to open it. Yeah, you

Corey:

can't not open it. All right, Brett's going to get the crack. I'm going to... Yeah, just do it. Do it up. I'll just open it.

Brett:

I'll get the official. I'll get the official, the Allagash sanctioned crack right into the microphone. Allagash This is From Maine with Love, an Allagash Brewing podcast where we talk about beer, our community here in Maine, and things that generally make us happy. And we're here today to speak about lagers. The beer, the type of beer, lagers in general, all the different lagers and like kind of quotation mark lagers that I feel like we've brewed over the years. And with me, Emily Wallace, hospitality director. Welcome, Emily.

Emily:

Thank you. And

Brett:

Corey McNutt, lager aficionado and R&D brewer.

Corey:

Thanks. How you doing? Thanks, Brett.

Brett:

You're welcome.

Emily:

You are, Corey.

Brett:

You are.

Emily:

He's blushing.

Brett:

Even before the secret question, Corey, I really do feel like you were a part of this sort of like lager renaissance here, where it was like you had submitted some pilot beer ideas that we had just not really brewed many lagers previous to that. And we were like, these are pretty, like, let's brew some lagers. And they were really good.

Corey:

Thank you. Thank you.

Brett:

You're welcome. We're going to talk about those, too. We're not going to leave you hanging. Before that, though, secret question for Emily, what is your favorite or a favorite early days memory in the tasting room?

Emily:

Oh, I like that question. There's so many. But which one? Early days memory. Okay, here's a fun one. All right. One time, it was winter, and so the tasting room was inside, and it was cozy, kind of a quiet night. And Abby Fisher... our HR manager walks in the tasting room and goes, is that Maggie Rogers sitting there? Sorry, this isn't like a... This is a funny memory, sort of. Cool memory. I like that. Maggie Rogers, the musician. The senior musician, yeah. Really? And she was, this was a long time ago, and I think she just had her song, Alaska, was out at the time. Yeah. And I was like, who? And she goes, she's a girl that sings Alaska. And we were staring at her, and I'm like, yeah, I think that looks just like her. And we Googled her, and we looked her up, and we verified that that was her. And then Abby went and talked to her, and she was doing a show in Portland that night, but she came and hung out in the tasting room. That's nice. Yeah, it was fun. You know, small little tasting room. It was cozy. Yeah. Just, I don't know, kind of a cool sled sighting.

Brett:

That is cool.

Emily:

Yeah.

Brett:

Nice. Well, a little bit about Emily, too. Emily has kind of risen through the ranks of Emily started here in the tasting room and is now our hospitality director. So congratulations. Thank you, Brett. You've seen it all.

Emily:

I've seen it all. That's great. All right. And we're still going.

Brett:

Oh, yeah. We're definitely still going. We have a lot of stuff planned there. That's another podcast episode

Emily:

entirely

Brett:

of all the things for next year for the tasting room. So there you go. Podcast. Last idea. Check. Corey, how are your children and dogs getting along?

Corey:

Oh, man. Well, they're getting along better now. Okay. Definitely our kid just loves to throw food at the dogs, you know? I mean, anything she has in her hand, she's just throwing. Avocado, it's like, they can't eat that. And the dogs love it. And the dogs love it. So they're getting along pretty well. It's tricky at times, though, with her, especially with food.

Brett:

I have a big dog, and his thing is that when I'm playing with a kid, he just walks between me and the kid and just stands there. Just like, no. No, pet me. I am the one who you shall pet.

Emily:

Remember me?

Brett:

Yeah.

Emily:

Yeah.

Brett:

Oh, yeah. We remember him. He's a big guy. So to start the topic at hand, ooh, I got a lager right in front of me. Allagash lager in a can. This is how it sounds.

Emily:

Oh. That was pretty good. That was pretty good

Brett:

timing, too. I didn't even just do it all in one swoop. I kind of broke it into two parts. This is kind of a question for you, Corey, but also I feel like it's just way too deep a topic to cover quickly, but I still want to cover it kind of quickly. A lager. What is a lager versus an ale?

Corey:

So lager versus ale, just in a general sense, all beer is kind of separated into two. you know, two categories, a lager or an ale. Lager yeast is, you know, bottom fermenting, typically fermented cold, you know, anywhere from 45 to 55 degrees Fahrenheit. And ales are top fermenting yeast and it's typically, you know, anywhere from 65 to 75 degrees. sometimes up to a hundred, you know, Saison, some crazy Saisons, stuff like that.

Brett:

So when I originally heard top fermenting and bottom fermenting, I like assumed it had to be more complicated than it sounded, but it just literally that the yeast either goes to the top of the liquid or falls to the bottom of the liquid. Is that kind of what it is?

Corey:

Pretty much. Yeah.

Brett:

Yeah. So that's what you, what it means when you hear top from any bottom fermenting. And then, I don't know, Emily, do you feel like– oh, this is actually a hard question. I'm going to– this is a tough one. Sorry. If you were to say lagers versus ales, like when people speak about them in the tasting room, do they, like, use any particular terms to say, like, oh, I don't like– or I like lagers because they have a blah to them or I like ales because they're

Emily:

like this? Oh, that was an easy question. Oh, okay, good. Thank you. Good, yeah, you're welcome. It's only up from here then. So– Actually, I've noticed that a lot of people use that as the descriptor. A lot of people know if they like lagers or not, and they lead with that. I'm a lager drinker. Less so with ales, I think. But we, for years, heard, oh, I drink lagers. And we didn't always have something to offer to those people. So maybe this is a good segue.

Brett:

Yeah, no, I mean, that's the thing is like, we didn't have something to offer them. And I think it's an interesting thing where like, it's both correct and not to say like, I'm a lager drinker. Cause there are ales that also can taste like lagers. And there are also ales that can taste like very different things. And so that's the part where it gets so complicated.

Emily:

Yeah. That's a good point too. And we, in that often we're able to kind of respond to, Oh, try this. Maybe you might like this. And we are able to kind of match them, but I think people do have an idea in their head about lager specifically that, they identify with that style as something that they like.

Brett:

Yeah. And that's

Emily:

been

Brett:

like such a historic thing we've had to deal with in the tasting room of, I like this thing that like, we don't necessarily have that exact thing you're looking for, but we have all these other really interesting beers that we can point you towards. Yeah. And it's nice now to kind of not have that problem.

Emily:

Yeah. And if given the time and someone who's willing to try things, like you're often able to find a good match. I think, uh, if we get into it a little bit more, like what, well, what flavor profiles do you like about that? Or what do you drink or what kinds of wine do you drink and why do you like it we're able to guide them there but at like a quick glance of our menu people might think oh there's nothing for me on that menu so it is this is really exciting for us in that sense too just to have something different to offer that very clearly shouts lager. Lager, that's the name.

Brett:

And I think is what people are looking, like, the intent of Allagash Lager, this beer we just released, is, like, the intent is to, the person who says, I'm a lager drinker, it's like, this is the beer that you're looking for. Like, this is what you have in mind.

Emily:

We heard. Yeah, yeah.

Brett:

Yeah. So to get to this lager, we brewed a lot of, lagers and lager type beers. And so I actually have a big long list of all of them and I, we don't have to necessarily talk in depth about all of them, but I think there's just something interesting to each one of these. That's a fun sort of like journey down memory lane on our, like how we got to this place where we were comfortable and confident brewing a straightforward lager versus having to necessarily, you know, put it, put a innovative spin on it or something like that. Or, I mean, I don't want to say that, This is, I would say, an innovative lager in that it is really good and balanced and awesome and contains everything you want out of it while still having the Allagash twist on it. But I think these other ones were definitely way further afield from what people are expecting out of a normal lager. So the first one actually Matt told me about because I had no clue it even existed. Browcon, when we installed our new brewing system, our 60, 70 barrel? 70 barrel. 70 barrel brew house that we brew all the Allagash White you've ever had in recent memory on. The first brew was actually not Allagash White. It was a Helles.

Corey:

Do you remember that, Corey? I do remember that, yeah.

Brett:

What was that? Honestly, I

Corey:

can't totally remember what we did that for. I think... I think it was because the Germans were here. I was

Emily:

going

Corey:

to say. You know, and we wanted to brew a Hellespier for them. Yeah.

Emily:

The Braucon system was constructed and installed by the Germans. Yeah.

Brett:

Yeah. Exactly. That's nice of us. Yeah. To brew the Hellespier.

Emily:

A nod to them.

Brett:

So the next one, I think chronologically, that was 2012 was the date I had for that one. Next one was two lights, I believe. Yeah. Two Lights is a beer we still release because that is a mix of lager and Sauvignon Blanc must, which is the juice of the grapes prior to it being fermented.

Emily:

It's a blend of lager yeast and champagne yeast?

Corey:

Yeah. So the primary fermentation is now Belgian lager yeast, and then it gets canned conditioned with champagne yeast. Right.

Brett:

So–

Emily:

Yeah,

Brett:

that one's been going strong. That's like the pilot beer. So that's Mariah, who works in our sales department. It was her idea that was off of kind of like a wine spritzer. Like, how can we kind of mimic this wine spritzery feel for a beer? And that one's been going strong. Like, that one's been a long time in our tasting room.

Emily:

Yeah, safe to say that concept was on the nose. And we bring it back every summer and... people come every summer to buy it.

Brett:

Do they

Emily:

really? And then when it's gone, people start asking when we're going to have it again. That's amazing.

Brett:

Yeah. Is that like, that's a beer that's got to be hard to scale though, right? Or is

Corey:

it? It does have some challenges, you know, like it's a little tricky to pump, you know, so the must goes in the whirlpool on the brewing system and the whirlpool is kind of up, you know, up on the deck, you know, about 12 feet high or something. So we have to pump it We have to have a little setup and pump it up into the whirlpool. And it's a little tricky because sometimes there's some timing challenges with it where you're like, oh, we've got to get it in there now because the boil is going. And then we've got to knock out into the whirlpool on top of the must. Yeah. it does have a little bit of challenges to it.

Brett:

That's, that's always the vibe I've got. I've never heard anyone say exactly like from the brewing side. Why? But I feel like every time I mentioned it, cause I really liked that beer. Every time I mentioned it around a brewer, there's always a little like,

Emily:

well, on behalf of us that sell it and the tasting room and the people that you make so happy. Yeah. Thank you for continuing to brew it every year.

Brett:

I'm glad. Yeah. That, that beer is, if you haven't tried that beer and you were a fan of any of the things we just talked about, it is so good. It's so much better than the sum of its parts, too. If it sounds good, it's even better. Next one, Moselle. You remember Moselle?

Corey:

TZ. Oh, yeah, TZ's beer, yep. So that was kind of a blend of a lager and a saison. which is kind of crazy, but you know,

Brett:

it worked. It did. Do you remember the ratio? That's a real specific question.

Corey:

The blend. I honestly can't remember like maybe 70, 30. That

Brett:

was where my brain was going to. Something

Corey:

around like 70 lager, 30 Saison, something around there. I can't remember exactly.

Brett:

Yeah. So that was like 2018. That was when we first started canning beers. We had never canned beers prior to 2018 when we installed a small canning line that no one liked. ever at any point and then we got a bigger candy line that I feel like everyone loves and it's way better and it's been amazing but yeah I remember Moselle do you remember anything about Moselle

Emily:

I do I remember it was just like a different concept for us it sold well we sold it in the summer it had

Brett:

a sweet label Todd nailed that one I still love that label. It kind of had some German sort of like flair to it.

Corey:

Yeah, it was kind of light and crispy, but then you get these Saison aromas and esters in it. It was just... Different. Totally. It was a different beer. It was cool. Totally.

Brett:

That's one of those beers I kind of wish we could brew again at some point on like a smaller, just a small like throwback release.

Emily:

But that's funny, like going through the progression here that blended with a Saison. Of course we did that. Yep. We had

Brett:

to

Emily:

change it up. Had to throw a little Saison in

Brett:

there. Yep. The next one is exactly the same thing with True Penny Pilsner. So this was a Pilsner we did, very straightforward Pilsner that we had to blend with Pertanomyces beer to be very Belgian about. I like that beer too. It was

Corey:

good beer.

Brett:

Yeah. Because

Emily:

it had Brett in it. It

Brett:

had Brett in it. Yeah. Well, when I started, we were brewing a lot of beers with Brett in it and no longer.

Corey:

Yeah. Yeah. That was around that time where a lot of beers were getting Brett in them. Pertanomyces is a wild strain, wild ale strain of yeast. There's different varieties, but often lends a funky– character to the beer totally

Emily:

I love Britannia Macy's I do too it's got like we always describe it to customers as funk yeah that a good funk that maybe is a little bit unexpected I think you can call it what barnyard barnyard for sure yeah easy

Corey:

horse blanket

Emily:

maybe but none of those make it sound really sound good it never does I think funk does the job.

Brett:

But I think it's the same allure of a stinky cheese. It has a aspect to it that's a little bit like, ugh. But it also is... it elevates it in a way that's like there's a lot going on, and it's really interesting to just kind of sip over time and see how it develops.

Emily:

It's hard to– if you're not expecting it, though, you get that a little bit. It's more expected in a cheese than if you haven't had a funky beer, a wild beer. You don't really know– sour beers people know a lot about now, but not necessarily in the sense of– pretend it might be. It's like kettle sours maybe are more expected.

Corey:

Honestly, our house bread, what we call our house bread, which we isolated from an old tank a long time ago, we now kind of treat it a little differently. We prop it up a little differently, which brings out a lot cleaner, more pineapple, fruit-forward flavors. So you do get a little funk, but you also get this awesome pineapple-y flavor. aroma to it which is pretty cool that

Brett:

yeah that pineapple aroma especially there was a beer little brett that we did that that beer i feel like had that huge pineapple sort of oh that was such a good beer

Emily:

and one tea oh yeah one tea and then asked about that

Brett:

do you really It was Brett IPA after that.

Emily:

Yep.

Brett:

I think I've said this already on the podcast, but I had it at my wedding. Of course you did. It was like the second year I'd worked here, and people at my wedding were all like, oh, Brett, you got a beer already. I was like, no. Nice. Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't my beer. Yeah. All right, we got some real random ones. Betten Pilsner. Do you remember this one? It is a Pilsner that was lagered in our concrete egg. Suffice it to say, it was lagered in a concrete egg. I'm guessing it had some minerality to it, which a lot of those concrete beers do, which is just such an interesting thing to age stuff in.

Corey:

Yeah, it definitely pulls out a lot of... you know, minerality to it. Like the first couple that we pulled out of it were real. I mean, you could smell concrete in the beer straight up, straight up, you know,

Brett:

like. So if concrete's your thing.

Corey:

But I think that Brent one, I think it came out all right. I'm sure it did. You know.

Brett:

We wouldn't have released it if it didn't have merits and was like an interesting and also good flavor experience. It was one of those that was up on the tasting room like signage and I had to put it on the website. And so I knew about it from that regard.

Corey:

I think we only did like a small draft.

Brett:

Oh,

Corey:

yeah. release of it, right? It wasn't very many

Brett:

kegs. Yep.

Corey:

I don't

Emily:

remember that. Maybe I was on vacation that

Brett:

week. Very possibly. All right, next one. Not even necessarily a lager, but that's why I put it on here. Nowadays, also formerly known as Noble Blonde. That was an ale. But it was fermented at a low temperature. Was it fermented in a lager range temperature? It

Corey:

was, yeah. I think it was around 55 degrees Fahrenheit. So nowadays it was a really cool beer and kind of like one of those beers that's kind of almost a turning point, I feel like, in our history. Totally. And the recipe is basically– Very similar to like a lager recipe or a pilsner recipe. But we use our house yeast, which is an ale strain, and we ferment it at 55 degrees. So it's pretty cool. You know, it uses all noble hops. I think it's like howler tau and saws in there. And, yeah, we use our house yeast fermented cold.

Brett:

Yeah. And that was like 12 packs in national distribution. Like that was a big– Big release for us. Do you remember reception on that beer?

Emily:

I don't. I was going to ask, did that come up through the pilot system?

Corey:

Yeah, I believe it was Winch's beer. I think it was Winch's beer, but

Brett:

yes, Winch, longtime packaging operator. That was, yeah, his beer, yeah.

Emily:

Reception in the tasting room. I mean, I remember it being like... a great option to have on the lineup. I think 12 packs in the tasting room. People like to kind of sample and buy a lot of different beers. So four packs tend to do better, four, six packs. But yeah, it was fun. It was definitely nice to have that option for people that are definitely looking for it.

Corey:

A little bit easier drinking, a little more subtle kind of aromas and flavors to it. I think we called it a

Brett:

Blondale. I'm pretty sure we labeled that a Blondale, which- has historically made a lot of sense to us internally, but I don't know if it makes any sense to anybody outside of the larger people. Because I don't know, I feel like I have such a... And I think it's probably that's the Belgian roots. Like Blond Ale, if you go to Belgium, you have Blond Ale. It's such a distinct flavor and awesome, super drinkable. And I think that's what we were kind of trying to... That felt the most right for what that beer was delivering.

Emily:

Yeah. I

Brett:

don't know if anyone...

Emily:

Yeah, I think if you're... We at a Belgian brewery, the word blonde, it does evoke a lot of like flavor characteristics, but to the general public.

Brett:

Yeah. It's like some esters, some like vanilla almost to me sort of a thing, like little, I don't know. I don't know if that's right.

Corey:

You know, the esters and the phenolics were a little more subdued, I think, because of the colder temperatures. And then you get some of those noble hops kind of coming out at you. So it was like in a way almost tipping towards lager.

Brett:

Yeah.

Corey:

But still an ale. Yeah.

Brett:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So we've blended together different beers with lagers. We have like blended together wine must with lagers and now we're tipping the ale into the lager. And so the next one I feel like is the good turning point is seconds to summer. That was a lager. That was Corey's recipe. That was a straight up lager. Yeah. That was Corey's beer. And that was, yeah, that was awesome. And I feel like I remember that beer coming out and people around the brewery just being like, yes.

Emily:

Yeah, and before it had a name, it was just like Corey's Beer.

Brett:

Corey's Beer.

Emily:

Corey's Locker. Packaging Corey's Beer.

Corey:

Yeah. That one, I don't say it a lot, but I was actually really proud of myself on that beer. Yeah. Over 12 years ago, before I came to Allagash, I was a home brewer. Never got to brew any lagers because I didn't have the right fermentation space for it. I didn't have cold fermentation. So Seconds of Summer was my first lager, and I was just proud of it. It's just really what I wanted in a beer. That's awesome. And it's one of those beers that's got simple ingredients. There's like five or six ingredients. But it still has some complexity to it. But it's easy drinking. You know, it fits a lot of categories, I think.

Emily:

I remember you telling, Corey, I remember you telling the tasting room team during the tasting when we were first releasing it that there was like a more personal story with your... Yeah, so

Corey:

my wife, her father's from Czech Republic. So, you know... we've been together for over 15 years. And so probably about 10 years ago, you know, I started drinking, I would go over to their house and we, he always, her dad always has lagers. Like that's all he drinks. He doesn't drink ales straight up, you know? So he'd always have all these different kinds of lagers from, you know, Czech Republic, Germany, Poland, and just, I'd always be trying these, awesome beers from all over Europe. That was part of the inspiration for me for that beer. The other part of the inspiration was being lucky enough to be sent to Belgium by Allagash when I was here for over five years and having a beer over there that was a lager. It was kind of a blend of the lager I had in Belgium and all the lagers that I had with my father-in-law. It was kind of a blend of all that together. That's awesome. It was really the inspiration.

Brett:

Did your father-in-law get to try? He did. He did. What did he say about

Corey:

it? He gave me the thumbs up, which is really big in their family.

Brett:

That's awesome. He deserved it.

Corey:

Yeah.

Brett:

Yeah. That beer is great. Yeah. Seconds of Summer, that was 2021. And 2022 re-released another beer that was kind of like a little step-ish in the same direction, which is Beach Report. That was another one of yours that was a pilot beer called Beer Deluxe that you had an incredible description for that I did not print out. And I should have printed it out because that was such a good description.

Corey:

Yeah, Beer Deluxe, that's a beer where the first couple pilots, we brewed with this... ale strain that is considered to be lager-like because some of the characteristics that it has. So that's another beer that kind of toes the line where it's like lager, ale, somewhere in between. I mean, I used all French hops in that. Originally, it was inspired by Beer Deluxe, which is a French lager. It was kind of an older style that you don't see a lot anymore. And so I used all French hops throughout, which one of them is Strisselspalt, which is really noble-like in character. So it really did kind of present like a lager.

Brett:

Yeah. That's cool. Do you remember much about– I feel like that was another one where– I think it was, for me, a personal just kind of excitement to have more of these variations on this similar easy-drinking theme of the lagers. It was a good follow-up to Seconds to Summer, and I knew we had some others in the pipe, too. So I feel like we were gaining steam when that beer came out in our lager excitement internally, and then also success externally, I guess.

Emily:

Yeah, I think that a lot of the internal excitement has inspired this path, too. Yeah. You know, we've done so many different variations and we were kind of joking about it, but always putting our own spin on it. But it seemed to be like a common thread year after year where we'd have something out that was lager-like and we've just gotten closer and closer to it. But yeah, I think the internal excitement and I think from the tasting room side, it's always nice when someone comes up and wants something that's a lager and you're like, I got you. And you feel really good about it. It's a really good one. And it's a little bit of what you know they're looking for in a beer. So I like getting closer and closer to what people are actually... meaning when they when they say they like these lagers

Brett:

yeah the thing that got me thinking of is i we saw some data recently and it was kind of like from anecdotal things of what people are looking for all aggregated and i think lager was like the number four style that people are looking for it's like you know ipa stout sour lager so it's like it is in the running for there are a ton of people who are beer drinkers who want this style you know as as maybe you it's not the most exciting style from the outside. It's like, Oh, it's just a lager. But I think there's, especially once you start going into the beer industry, like most beer industry folks that I know who are big fans of beer will like talk about how much they like lagers or

Corey:

the cool part about lager for me is like most of the time they're made with, you know, a handful only of ingredients, but yet they're, They're pretty complex. And a lot of that comes from the fermentation. And it's like you can't, with lagers, there's no room to hide any off flavors. You know, like if there's off flavors in there, they really come out. So your fermentation profile has to be like spot on. You know, your pitch rate has to be good. The fermentation profile has to be good. Your temperature has to be good. They have to be handled gently and well, you know.

Brett:

Yeah, it's a show of the quality of the brewing team.

Corey:

And they're so nuanced, too. All the flavors and aromas, they're a little toned down, but it's just this perfect balance of everything. Malt, hop, yeast character, it just all comes together. Yeah. It's real nice. I

Brett:

love it. All right, we got two more that I wanted to mention, then we get to this lager. So Curate, it's a collab we did with Crowns and Hops. It's a portion of Curio or bourbon barrel aged golden ale and their atrial pills. And that was cool. That was just like, that was kind of came from them. There's a whole story behind that. We actually did a podcast with them. So you should go back and listen to that. Their founders are amazing. That beer has all this kind of like rich meaning for them because of Curio and everything else. But like that was, I don't know. That was a cool beer. That's I mean,

Emily:

there's so many layers about why that beer is so cool. Yeah. And we keep, brewing it. Yeah.

Brett:

Yeah.

Corey:

I mean, it's another one of those beers where we're blending literally like a lager and an ale. Yeah. Together. Yeah. You know, at a certain percentage in it, it works.

Emily:

Yeah.

Corey:

Yeah. Yeah. That

Brett:

was awesome. All right. Surf house is the one before we get here and that is a lager, but with like a twist, I feel like, and the twist is Ella hops and also flaked corn. How is that? I mean, we're, cause we're gonna be brewing it again next year. I think it seems like a pretty– I don't know. What do you think about that one?

Corey:

It's a cool beer. Joe, one of our– a guy who used to brew here, that was his recipe, and it's a– It's a pretty hoppy lager. Yeah. And the way that it just works really nicely with the corn. We use local corn in it from Maine Malthouse. And the way the Ella works with the corn, and you get that kind of like the grapefruitiness from the Ella, and it's got a really nice aroma to it. Yeah.

Emily:

Yeah, and I think a lot of people are accustomed to drinking hoppy beers, so it's a little bit more of what maybe like a... toned down IPA. I know that is not true, but I think there's a New England, a lot of people are asking for hoppy beers, drink hoppy beers.

Corey:

It's a hoppy lager. It's hopped more than normal, for sure. Quite a bit more. Is it dry hopped? It's dry hopped, yeah. There's a touch of dry

Emily:

hops. Very well received. People loved that beer.

Brett:

Yeah, we needed to brew... we brewed a lot of that beer and we're going to brew a lot more of that beer next year. So look for that.

Emily:

Way exceeded expectations, which is great.

Brett:

Yeah. Super cool. How that beer was received, I think. And also from a design branding standpoint, I think we were super pumped about how we got to where we were with that beer and making it feel accessible and, and sort of fitting the vibe of the situation in which we were hoping people would want to drink it.

Corey:

Yeah. It's an awesome summer beer. I mean, it's light, it's refreshing. It's like kind of citrusy, but tropical almost. in a way. Really nice.

Brett:

I'd agree. I'm going to put that on an ad. Just take that voice, Graham, and just put it on an ad. I don't want to give short shrift to these other ones, but I want to get to our lager. So we have Verb, which is a lager with lemon verbena that we did with Montclair Brewing. That was super good. We did Upward Movement, which is Sarah's Czech amber lager with black tea. That was another brewery-only release. Awesome beer. We did the Kernza lager, which was a Patagonia collab. So Kernza is a perennial grain. that roots reach super deep into the soil and it's regenerative and does all these great things. So all those are awesome. But here we have alga ash lager, which I want to actually take a sip of. Pause for sipping. So good. I guess I've been sipping. Yeah, good. I'm glad you've been sipping. That's good. So I feel like you kind of hit on it, Corey, but like to a certain, just to kind of level set us here, like, What are, I guess, your benchmarks for a good lager? If you were going to kind of put it out there of like, this is what I'm looking for in a good lager.

Corey:

Yeah, so I mean, honestly, a lot of people know me. Lately, I've been 5% or under ABV. I like session beers and lighter beers. And for me, a good lager, you get some of that malty bread crust flavor. character and then you get some noble hops to it you know some saws or holler tau some floral spicy aromas um and then a little touch of like esters from the yeast just a tiny bit and you know something that kind of rolls on your tongue and just kind of rolls right off like it's not it's not too bitter it's but it does have some firm bitterness to it, but you're not overly thinking about it after you take a sip. Totally.

Emily:

I like that. So well said. You just described this lager. I think you literally did. I was like, I experienced that just a second

Brett:

ago. Emily, do you have any, what do you think of when you think of a good lager?

Emily:

I think you just nailed it. Well, this is a really cool process too. That was super collaborative and I assume you're going there. Oh

Brett:

yeah, that's where I'm going.

Emily:

Great.

Brett:

Take us there.

Emily:

I think that a lot of people at Allagash had the opportunity to say what they think a good lager is. And so that we had, we had so many of these conversations but a lot of it was about not just the taste experience but the ABV and how light it is. Like you don't want it to be super heavy. Yeah,

Corey:

it's so light on your palate.

Emily:

Yeah.

Brett:

Yeah.

Emily:

I,

Brett:

there's a part of this lager and a part of lagers in general that I like, and it is not exactly what it's going to sound like, but sweetness. And I think there's a perception of that. And I think we've nailed the balance because it's not a lingering, like cloying sweetness, but it is a, you get some sweetness somewhere in there that then nicely disappears beautifully dry beer. But like, that's kind of important for me when I'm having just like. A crushable lager. Yeah.

Emily:

And I think what you mentioned about the bitter, there's no bitter linger. No. If you want it to taste a little bit bitter, but then it

Brett:

just kind of goes away. Yeah. So to get to this actual recipe, we had, I think it was five different recipes in the running, which we then winnowed down to three different recipes, which we then tested regularly. internally, uh, to see which, like we brewed them, we put them on tap and we had staff to both taste them like in a super analytical way. And then also just in like a, like a, a lager social where we tasted all three and then put a, our voting method was just a single wooden chip. Where do you

Emily:

want it to go? And we did a little, um, tasting in the tasting room too, with people that were, uh, in the tasting room between, you know, happy hour on a Friday and just kind of pulled people to say, Hey, will you taste these side by side?

Brett:

Yeah. And the funny thing about the wooden chip one was that it was three different beers and we had, I forget how many tasters, but it was literally even. It was 13, 13, and 13 or something like that. That's crazy. It was nuts. What are the odds of that? That's crazy. I don't know. But like, and honestly, the tasting room sampling was really fun because people had certain opinions some way or another, but like it was almost even split there too. So the takeaway for us with those three different versions was like, these are really good beers. Yeah. Really good at brewing lagers. Yeah, exactly. We got really good at brewing lagers. And then we ended up with this one. I think we took all the data together and there was a trend towards one of them among the type of people who would be drinking more lager than not. And so I think that's where we went.

Emily:

Yeah. And I think it, the conversation went to, okay, these are all really good. Obviously we would, we would all drink all of them, but what is the consumer really looking for? And what are people, what people think when they're asking for a lager, just a straight up clean, light, low ABV lager.

Corey:

Yeah.

Brett:

Yeah.

Corey:

Yeah, I mean, from our brewing side, I mean, we were down to these three, and we're like, well, they're all really good. Like, what are we, you know? It was kind of tricky to decide on the last one, you know? It was like, we couldn't really go wrong here, almost. Yeah.

Brett:

I wouldn't be surprised if those other lagers make an appearance, too. Like, the ones that we didn't choose this time around, like, let's just release them as something else. Yeah.

Emily:

But it did seem like when we... When we narrowed it down to this one, there was such a consensus around like, yeah, that's the right one.

Corey:

Yeah,

Emily:

totally. So I think it got us all to the same place.

Corey:

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

Brett:

Yeah. And so this lager, Allagash lager, is right now only available in our tasting room, but soon it's going to be available in a lot more places. Most places Allagash is sold, eventually, in an eventual time. I don't know when we're allowed to say that. Who knows when? We can cut this out. You just said it. I mean, I think it's exciting. I think it's something to get excited about.

Corey:

It is exciting.

Emily:

I think, I don't know. I think we have to verify, but I'm pretty sure it's just the New England Northeast. Northeast. So not everywhere.

Brett:

Okay. Sorry. I'll take it back. Soon. It's going to be more available in many places. Allagash are sold mostly in the Northeast, but yeah. So if you're in the Northeast, you can be on the lookout for it eventually.

Emily:

But it's been super well received in the tasting room so far at events. Yeah, it's just, we're all proud and excited to have this available.

Brett:

Totally. Just, yeah, selfishly, for sure, for me, it's just like such an awesome option to be able to take home and enjoy.

Emily:

And the can design.

Brett:

Oh, yeah.

Emily:

Really nice. Beautiful.

Brett:

It's

Emily:

like it's always been

Brett:

here. If you see it, if you're looking at a can, there's a kind of shape on it to the badge behind lager. That's actually the shape of our tap handle, which is a nice little nod. And then you'll see under lager, there's a little river scene of water coming from a mountain. That's the same river scene from the Allagash White can as well. So there's a lot of nice little heritage touches to it. But it also, you see it and you know exactly what it is. It all

Corey:

ties together nicely. And the colors are great. I mean, it looks like a classic label but like still a little updated you know it's cool

Emily:

thank you Corey approved yeah

Brett:

it is it is I don't know any any final thoughts on this one or just final lager thoughts in general

Corey:

you can put this in a stein you know fill a stein up

Brett:

fill a

Corey:

stein up it's stein worthy we could do a stein day a boot

Brett:

a boot a boot for sure Those

Emily:

are hard. Or won't do a boot day. Yeah, don't do

Brett:

that, because the toe, the toe, like, when you get to the point, it kind of wants to get you. There's a little bubble in there. Yeah.

Emily:

You've done a couple

Brett:

of them. I may have. It's also, like, I feel like a critical plot point of Beer Fest, if you've ever seen that movie.

Emily:

Yeah, oh, yeah.

Brett:

Yeah, anyway. Well, awesome. Thank you, Emily, Corey, for stopping in to talk about lagers. This has been super great.

Corey:

Yeah, thanks for having me,

Emily:

Brett. Thank you.

Brett:

Yeah. We realized that we forgot a lager, and we want to rectify that problem. It was from Ain't With Love Beer, and it was called Botanical Lager. And the idea was a spaghetti, I believe, or was from a spaghetti. which is a Miller High Life that you drink a little bit out of. You put some Aperol in it, and then you put a squeeze of lemon in it.

Emily:

Lemon.

Brett:

Squeeze

Corey:

of lemon, yep.

Brett:

That's really good, by the way. That little beer cocktail is good. It's very good. But Corey was saying he helped. Yeah,

Corey:

so this was Tyler's pilot recipe. Yeah. And we did– we put– Kind of a crazy amount of botanicals in there.

Brett:

So we say orange zest. So this is the botanical lager for Man With Love number 27 that we call botanical lager. Pilsner malt. Oh, we don't need the grains. Spices, orange zest, lemon zest, rhubarb, gentian root, cinchona bark. Cinchona bark.

Corey:

That gives it kind of a little bitterness. Bitter quality

Brett:

to it.

Corey:

And then Angelica root? Angelica root, yep. What does that do? A little bit of bitterness and then kind of some herbal-y notes to

Emily:

it. It's kind of like a– is it like a– anise type? I think it does have a little

Corey:

anise in it. Oh, that makes sense.

Emily:

Because I know that Aperol is proprietary, so you can't look up

Corey:

what's

Emily:

in it.

Brett:

What's in Aperol?

Emily:

It's a really interesting blend.

Brett:

Genshin root? What does Genshin root do?

Corey:

Definitely Genshin root is a big... All of these are kind of bitter components. All of these ingredients are used in bitters or bitter Italian... liqueurs and stuff like that

Brett:

how about rhubarb like was it was it like literal was it like dried rhubarb yeah we

Corey:

use dry rhubarb because it's kind of tricky you know because we can't really put fresh rhubarb in the fermenter or anything like that so we have to use a product we we ended up stumbling upon dried rhubarb huh and we use it in the whirlpool

Brett:

yeah

Corey:

so

Brett:

that was a super like this was one of those beers where like i really wanted us to nail the how to talk about it because it was so good. And I didn't want to off-put people by saying like, is it botanical? Is it like spaghetti style? Spiced. Yeah, it was just like, I wish we could have just kind of like special lager or something.

Corey:

Yeah, because it's not like spices, you know? It's not spicy. They're like kind of more subtle botanicals.

Emily:

Herbal. Herbal. Herbal gives maybe... I thought botanical was the right word. I

Brett:

think we chose totally. I think it shows totally right. But I think herbal was in the running. And I think that's exactly where it's like, whenever I hear herbal, I think like potpourri or like, yeah. Tea, which was like, I don't know if that's going to be off putting, but

Emily:

yeah. But botanical is also like familiar with like gin. Yeah. Oh yeah. Big time beverage. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Brett:

That beer is awesome. Way to go, Tyler. Yeah. Great beer.

Corey:

Oh boy.

Brett:

There you go.